[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi Bertil,

That is right, the Battle Axe People are usually equated with 
Indo-Europeans. As you said you are interested in genetic studies 
below are a number of references including some gentic studies. 
However, all of them point to a Germanic settlement of Scandinavia at 
a later date (around 1000 BC) on linguistic evidence (i.e. lack of 
variation in early runic inscription in Denmark and Sweden), 
archaeological evidence and genetic evidence. For genetic evidence
see 
especially, Lachmann and Menozzi, "Genetische Untersuchung 
Indo-Europaeischer Landname" Ulm/Tuebingen Konferenz papers May 1997, 
who argue that a more narrow genetic variation in Scandinavia argues 
for a comparatively late but fast settlement by Germanic people 'in 
the first Millenium BC'.
But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any 
discussion on e-mail.


Beckman, Lars. 1959. A contribution to the physical anthropology and 
population genetics of Sweden. Lund.


Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca, Menozzi, Paolo & Piazza, Alberto. 1994. 
The history and geography of human genes. Princeton, New Jersey.

Elert, Claes-Christian. 1992. "Sydeuropas språkvärld under 3000
år: 
Från mångfald till enhetlighet, och åter till mångfald."
La culture 
dans la langue. Utg. I. Söhrman. Umeå Studies
in the Humanities 112. Umeå. S. 13-22.

Elert, Claes-Christian. 1993. "Hur länge har de nordiska
språken 
talats i Sverige?". Studier i svensk språkhistoria 3. Utg. Lars 
Wollin. Skrifter utgivna av Institutionen för nordiska språk
vid Uppsala universitet 34. S. 69-75.

Eriksson, Aldur. 1995. "Genetic traits in Saamis (Lapps) as compared 
to surrounding populations." Congressus Octavus Internationalis 
Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International
Congress for Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki Leskinen. I-II. 
Jyväskylä. S. 321.

Jensen, Ronnie. 1989. "Bronze Age settlement patterns in the
Mälaren 
basin - ecological and social relationships." Bronze Age studies. 
Stockholm. Statens hist. mus. Studies 6. S.
133-150.

Larsson, Thomas B. 1986: The Bronze Age metalwork in southern Sweden. 
Umeå. Dep. of Archeology.

Mallory, J. P. 1989. In search of the Indo-Europeans. London.

Sajantila, Antti m. fl. 1995. "Genes and languages in Europe: An 
analysis of mitochondrial lineages". Genomic Research 5. S. 42-52. 

Sajantila, Antti och Svante Pääbo. 1995. "Language replacement in 
Scandinavia." Nature. Genetics volume. 11 December 1995. S. 359-360.

Sammallahti, Pekka. 1995. "Language and roots." Congressus Octavus 
Internationalis Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International Congress for 
Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki
Leskinen. I-II. Jyväskylä. S. 143-53. 

Wiik, Kalevi. 1995. The Baltic Sea prosodic area revisited. 
Duplicerad.

Zachrisson, Inger. 1993. "A review of archaelogical research on Saami 
prehistory in Sweden." A review of current Swedish archaelogy I. Utg. 
Mats Burström & Anders Carlsson.
Stockholm. S. 171-81.

Best regards 

Dirk


--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden
> is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe
> and Ageroed's Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen)
> also in southern Sweden in Scania). That was obviously
> remains from people who followed the melting ice as
> it retreated northwards.
> 
> The Stone Age 2500 - 1800 BC is in Sweden charachterized
> as the War Axe or Boat Axe era. It is a change which
> seems to indicate that a foreign people conquered
> the Scandinavian peninsula and introduced a society
> of class differences and powerful chiefs. One wonders
> who these conquerers were?
> 
> The Bronze Age in Sweden, particularly in southern was
> a cultural period of greatness. Very rich finds of bronze 
> and gold from graves are present.
> 
> (Joergen Weibull, _Sveriges historia_, Swedish Institute,
> Stockholm, 1993).
> 
> I would place the origin of the Germanic peoples in
> northern Germany, Jutland and the Danish Islands and
> Scania (Oscar Montelius, "Germanernas hem"). The
> dating would be around 2000 BC. That coincides well
> with the War Axe/Boat Axe people.
> 
> Around 200 BC Cimbrians, Teutones, and Ambrones
> migrate to the south threatening the Roman empire.
> 
> Around BC Goths migrate from Goetaland.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil
> 
> > there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would 
> > preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said 
> > explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the 
first 
> > century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I
am 
> > saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people came 
to 
> > Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical
and 
> > apparently genetic evidence for the  that. (See Cavallo Sforza, 
> > "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune
with 
> > theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one 
can 
> > truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.
> 
> Other contributor (anon):
> 
> > It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to
Scandinavia 
via 
> > Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the 
Gulf 
> > of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer 
herding 
> > or forest hunting.
> > 
> > Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than
now. 
At 
> > various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the
Danish 
> > Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake
that 
> > drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry bed 
of 
> > the Storebaelt.


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