[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples

Tue Oct 31 08:45:57 UTC 2000

Hi Bertil,

Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt 
that
Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they 
spread
out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. As for 
quotes,
there are so many that I don't know were to begin. For a linguistic
approach Cleas Elert said: " The absence of any great dialect split in
the Germanic language spoken in Scandinavia and northern Germany at 
the
time of the earliest written sources (ca. 200-500 A.D.) indicates
strongly that a Germanic language has been spoken over such a large 
area
for only a short time. The late Bronze Age (ca. 700 B.C.) was a time 
of
cultural change { in Scandinavia} when the language(s) spoken earlier
may have been replaced by the Germanic language." Reference op. cit..

Findeisens proposition is well supported by the cited literature. If
Germanic people spreading out from what is now central Germany had
arrived in Jutland by 2000 BC it might have taken them another few
hundered years to feel the need to move further on (population 
pressure
argument). In any case this settlement process was likely gradual and
the population balance in Sweden may not have shifted in favour of the
newcomers before around 1000 BC, which does not exclude the 
propability
that Germanic settleres had started coming in a few centuries earlier.
There is always a give and take of a couple of hundred years in that.
The important thing is that all the evidence discounts older theories
and propositions which still are in circulation that 'the Germanic
people' originated some 5000 to 4000 years ago in Scandinavia.

Dirk

Bertil Häggman wrote:

> Dirk,
>
> Maybe you should take a look at what German historians
> write about Scandinavia. I am quoting Professor Joerg-
> Peter Findeisen in his recent _Daenemark - Von den Anfaengen
> bis zur Gegenwart_ (1999):
>
> Vor knapp 4000 Jahren wurde die Bauernkultur schwer
> erschuettert. Ein aggressives Reitervolk erreichte auf
> seine rWanderung Mittel- und Nordeuropa: In mehreren
> Wellen kamen immer mehr "Streitaxt-Maenner" ins Land...
> Gleichzeitig setzte sich ein Seefahrervolk an der Kueste
> fest." (p. 21).
>
> I cannot find in this book any evidence of an immigration to
> Scandinavia around 1000 BC. Can you provide any concrete
> quotes that support this theory.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Germanically
>
> Bertil

--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, dirk at s... wrote:
> Hi Bertil,
> 
> That is right, the Battle Axe People are usually equated with 
> Indo-Europeans. As you said you are interested in genetic studies 
> below are a number of references including some gentic studies. 
> However, all of them point to a Germanic settlement of Scandinavia 
at 
> a later date (around 1000 BC) on linguistic evidence (i.e. lack of 
> variation in early runic inscription in Denmark and Sweden), 
> archaeological evidence and genetic evidence. For genetic evidence
> see 
> especially, Lachmann and Menozzi, "Genetische Untersuchung 
> Indo-Europaeischer Landname" Ulm/Tuebingen Konferenz papers May 
1997, 
> who argue that a more narrow genetic variation in Scandinavia argues 
> for a comparatively late but fast settlement by Germanic people 'in 
> the first Millenium BC'.
> But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any 
> discussion on e-mail.
> 
> 
> Beckman, Lars. 1959. A contribution to the physical anthropology and 
> population genetics of Sweden. Lund.
> 
> 
> Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca, Menozzi, Paolo & Piazza, Alberto. 1994. 
> The history and geography of human genes. Princeton, New Jersey.
> 
> Elert, Claes-Christian. 1992. "Sydeuropas språkvärld under 3000
> år: 
> Från mångfald till enhetlighet, och åter till mångfald."
> La culture 
> dans la langue. Utg. I. Söhrman. Umeå Studies
> in the Humanities 112. Umeå. S. 13-22.
> 
> Elert, Claes-Christian. 1993. "Hur länge har de nordiska
> språken 
> talats i Sverige?". Studier i svensk språkhistoria 3. Utg. Lars 
> Wollin. Skrifter utgivna av Institutionen för nordiska språk
> vid Uppsala universitet 34. S. 69-75.
> 
> Eriksson, Aldur. 1995. "Genetic traits in Saamis (Lapps) as compared 
> to surrounding populations." Congressus Octavus Internationalis 
> Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International
> Congress for Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki Leskinen. I-II. 
> Jyväskylä. S. 321.
> 
> Jensen, Ronnie. 1989. "Bronze Age settlement patterns in the
> Mälaren 
> basin - ecological and social relationships." Bronze Age studies. 
> Stockholm. Statens hist. mus. Studies 6. S.
> 133-150.
> 
> Larsson, Thomas B. 1986: The Bronze Age metalwork in southern 
Sweden. 
> Umeå. Dep. of Archeology.
> 
> Mallory, J. P. 1989. In search of the Indo-Europeans. London.
> 
> Sajantila, Antti m. fl. 1995. "Genes and languages in Europe: An 
> analysis of mitochondrial lineages". Genomic Research 5. S. 42-52. 
> 
> Sajantila, Antti och Svante Pääbo. 1995. "Language replacement in 
> Scandinavia." Nature. Genetics volume. 11 December 1995. S. 359-360.
> 
> Sammallahti, Pekka. 1995. "Language and roots." Congressus Octavus 
> Internationalis Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International Congress for 
> Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki
> Leskinen. I-II. Jyväskylä. S. 143-53. 
> 
> Wiik, Kalevi. 1995. The Baltic Sea prosodic area revisited. 
> Duplicerad.
> 
> Zachrisson, Inger. 1993. "A review of archaelogical research on 
Saami 
> prehistory in Sweden." A review of current Swedish archaelogy I. 
Utg. 
> Mats Burström & Anders Carlsson.
> Stockholm. S. 171-81.
> 
> Best regards 
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden
> > is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe
> > and Ageroed's Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen)
> > also in southern Sweden in Scania). That was obviously
> > remains from people who followed the melting ice as
> > it retreated northwards.
> > 
> > The Stone Age 2500 - 1800 BC is in Sweden charachterized
> > as the War Axe or Boat Axe era. It is a change which
> > seems to indicate that a foreign people conquered
> > the Scandinavian peninsula and introduced a society
> > of class differences and powerful chiefs. One wonders
> > who these conquerers were?
> > 
> > The Bronze Age in Sweden, particularly in southern was
> > a cultural period of greatness. Very rich finds of bronze 
> > and gold from graves are present.
> > 
> > (Joergen Weibull, _Sveriges historia_, Swedish Institute,
> > Stockholm, 1993).
> > 
> > I would place the origin of the Germanic peoples in
> > northern Germany, Jutland and the Danish Islands and
> > Scania (Oscar Montelius, "Germanernas hem"). The
> > dating would be around 2000 BC. That coincides well
> > with the War Axe/Boat Axe people.
> > 
> > Around 200 BC Cimbrians, Teutones, and Ambrones
> > migrate to the south threatening the Roman empire.
> > 
> > Around BC Goths migrate from Goetaland.
> > 
> > Gothically
> > 
> > Bertil
> > 
> > > there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would 
> > > preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said 
> > > explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the 
> first 
> > > century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I
> am 
> > > saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people 
came 
> to 
> > > Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical
> and 
> > > apparently genetic evidence for the  that. (See Cavallo Sforza, 
> > > "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune
> with 
> > > theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one 
> can 
> > > truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.
> > 
> > Other contributor (anon):
> > 
> > > It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to
> Scandinavia 
> via 
> > > Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the 
> Gulf 
> > > of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer 
> herding 
> > > or forest hunting.
> > > 
> > > Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than
> now. 
> At 
> > > various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the
> Danish 
> > > Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake
> that 
> > > drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry 
bed 
> of 
> > > the Storebaelt.

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