[gothic-l] The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths

[bertil]

The latest scholar is Dane Jes Martens
with a great number of other scholars.
The arguments put forward are both
archaelogical and linguistical (Vend-
syssel is the nortnmost part of Jutland;
Vend = Vand).

What article do you refer to in the
not very reliable German newsmagazine
Der Spiegel? Which scholars? What
new research? 

short question, which source places 
the Vandals to North Jutland? I 
have never heard of any other 
'starting' place for the Vandals than 
the Weichsel/Silesia region, with 
the name Silesia derived from 
Silingi a Vandal sub-tribe. 

> This raises the overall question of origin in general. The latest 
> research on the Germanic people and culture (summarised in a Spiegel 
> article, exact reference can be supplied) helds that all Germanic 
> people (i.e. the Germanic culture) originate from the German 
> Harz mountain/Thuringia region. There are recent discoveries of 
> proto-Germanic settlements and the famous proto-Germanic sacrificial 
> cave near Osterode. Also, linguistic studies of place names (such 
> as: 'leben, hude, buettel', etc. for settlements or 'riede, beke' etc 
> for small streams etc.) find the greatest diversity of Germanic place 
> names in that region. Thus there is a greater diversity of Germanic 
> place names in that region than in any other Germanic settlement
> area. 
>   From that region the Germanic people spread out also to Skandinavia 
> only to reemerge a few centuries with different tribal names. So any 
> origin theory only provides a snap-shot of a certain group of people 
> that are known historically by a certain name or archeologically 
> attributed to a certin cultural group at a certain point in time.
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > As usual David Salo has not the slightest
> > proof for his beliefs.
> > 
> > Prokopius mentions the Goetar, and it is possible
> > that Ptolemaios mentions this South Scandinavian
> > people as Goutai, which probably at the time was
> > pronounced Gotae.
> > 
> > In Liber Monstrorum (8th century AD) Huiglacus is
> > called "Rex Getarum". There was a mix up between
> > Gotae and Getae in Eastern Europe but there
> > can be no question of that in relation to the Frisian-
> > Francian tradition, the Getae (Geats) are the Goetar
> > (Gautar).
> > 
> > So the first of the Goetar to be mentioned is King Hugilaik.
> > One needs to go to verse 2200 in Beowulf to read about
> > the historically proven struggle (around 510 AD?) between 
> > the Svear and the Goetar, which resulted, eventually, much 
> > later in the Svear gaining the upper hand.
> > 
> > In Beowulf there is mention of wars to be expected by the
> > Geats, and these wars did take place.
> > 
> > As has been pointed out numerous times on this list the Goths
> > themselves believed they originated in Southern
> > Scandinavia. Why should the Goths believe the
> > originated from the pagan North when they could easily
> > claim much more famous ancestry if this was not
> > the truth?
> > 
> > Then there is the fact of the linguistical similarity between
> > Goetar/Gautar, Gutar (from the island of Gotland), Goths
> > (lat. Goti).
> > 
> > David Salo also seems to believe that geographical distance
> > is of importance. We know from the history of the Era of
> > Great Migration that Germanic tribes migrated very long distances.
> > For instance the Vandals from North Jutland ended up in North
> > Africa and the early migration of the Cimbri from Jutlandic
> > Himmerland is an example of several Germanic tribes migrating 
> > over very long distances.
> > 
> > Gothically
> > 
> > Bertil Haggman
> > 
> > 
> > >     Regardless of what you think the connection between the Gautar
> > > (*Gautos) and Goths (*Gutans) was -- and I myself do not believe 
> that there
> > > was any closer connection between them than between the Goths and 
> any other
> > > non-East Germanic grouping -- you certainly cannot identify the 
> Goths with
> > > "Beowulf's Geats".
> > >     Beowulf was said, in the poem which has been given his name, 
> to be the
> > > nephew of Hygelac the Geat.  Hygelac (ON Hugleikr; *Hugilaiks)
> was 
> a
> > > historical figure, whose death is recorded as occurring c. 521.  
> The first
> > > half of Beowulf, Beowulf's killing of Grendel and Grendel's 
> mother, takes
> > > place not long before this date, when Hygelac is still king of
> the 
> Geats;
> > > the second half, Beowulf's fight with the dragon, takes place
> many 
> decades
> > > after Hygelac's death.
> > >     In 521, Amalaric (Amalareiks) was ruling the Visigoths of 
> Spain, and
> > > Theodoric (Thiudareiks) ruled the Ostrogoths of Italy.  Both 
> tribes were
> > > fully differentiated in cultural, linguistic, and religious terms 
> from
> > > their Scandinavian cousins (the Goths were Arian Christians; the 
> Geats and
> > > other Scandinavian tribes were pagan, and would remain so for 
> centuries).
> > > They were also, if it is necessary to stress the point, separated 
> by
> > > hundreds of miles from Scandinavia and surrounded by quite 
> different
> > > cultures.  While the Geats at this time were still in a "heroic 
> age" so
> > > remote from the historical record that it was capable of passing 
> into myth,
> > > the Goths were busily assimilating the far more ancient 
> Greco-Roman culture
> > > into which they had stumbled, and creating artifacts like the 
> Silver Bible
> > > which are as artistically and technically superb as they are 
> linguistically
> > > significant.  That the Gothic renaissance would be cut short in 
> its prime
> > > should not obscure the enormous cultural gap that existed between 
> the Goths
> > > and their supposed Scandinavian progenitors at this time.
> 
> 
> 
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