[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Thanks for the literature reference. I shall have a look. I know that 
this a Gothic and not Vandalic page, but could you provide an 
argument, instead of names of scholars. By the way my German is ok, 
being German myself. 

One source of the Spiegel article, (der Spiegel is of course not an 
academic journal) is Juergen Udolph. His 1036-pages study of Germanic 
names (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem), Walter de Gruyter 
Verlag Berlin, provides the substantiation of the mere statements, as 
you call them, about the origin of the Germanic culture and people. 

My remarks about Scandinavia were not intended as offence, even if
you 
seem to have taken them as such. Scandinavia is simply not in the 
centre of Europe and at the cross-roads of different cultures, which 
nation-buiding theory see as a requirement for the formation of 
cultures and identities. Scandinavia certainly has a rich and 
interesting history nobody would dispute that.

regards
Dirk




--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Of course you are intitled to your views.
> I would suggest that you study "The Vandals: myths
> and facts about a Germanic tribe of the first half 
> of the 1st Milleníum AD" by Jes Martens in _Archaelogical
> Appoaches to Cultural Identity_, London: Unwin and Hyman,
> 1989.
> 
> As I don't know about your knowledge of German I am
> at this point refraining from citing any German literature
> on the subject of Vandals.
> 
> Maybe it should be kept in mind that this is a Gothic
> list, not a Vandalic list.
> 
> Concerning Der Spiegel I don't agree with you that
> it is a "serious" magazine but I have read it myself
> for amusement for a couple of decades. A recent
> article on the vikings was one of the worst I have seen,
> not at all in line with recent research.
> 
> Your ideas on Scandinavia at the time of the period
> at the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron is
> not correct, which any scholar on ancient Scandinavia
> can attest. Don't know about your background in
> Scandinavian history, but southern Sweden at that
> time and during the coming centuries up to BC
> was very rich.
> 
> Your statement that the Germanic peoples originated
> in Germany has to be substantiated. Mere statements
> of the type you are providing is not enough.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil Haggman
> 
> 
> 
> > thanks for the comment. I find the linguistic evidence for a
North 
> > Jutland origin of the Vandals not convincing, many places can 
> > problably be identified with a Vend or Vand component. Also, I 
think 
> > that some scholars believe that the name Vandals was adopted 
somewhat 
> > later after the Vandals had emerged from Celtic Lugian domination 
in 
> > Silesia, but  I am not certain about that. 
> > 
> > Der Spiegel is the major weekly magazine in Germany. It may have 
had 
> > its problems when rushing too fast into a hot topic (e.g. Hitler 
> > diaries), but it is one of the most serious and best magazines in 
> > Europe. As for  the details, I would have to look that up. I
still 
> > have the article and I am sure they are citing and Interviewing 
some 
> > of the leading scholars in the field. I find the arguments 
presented 
> > there particularly convincing because peoples, cultures, nations 
etc. 
> > do normally emerge in relation to another group. Identity is 
(almost) 
> > always defined 'against' somebody. In the Harz/Thuringian region
a 
> > proto-Germanic culture would have interacted with neibouring 
Celts, 
> > while in culturally, commercially and geographically remote 
> > Scandinavia at the margins of Europe such a process is
practically 
> > unthinkable. There can be little doubt that the Germanic cultural 
> > group formed at the interface to the Celts with no clear dividing
> > line 
> > . This place almost has to be the described Harz/Thuringian
region 
of 
> > Germany.


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