[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Bavaria

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi Cory,

there is lots of interesting material here and I will need some time 
to digest that all. However, it strikes me that there is one 
major mis-understanding. 

When I said that the first Bajuvari, i.e. 'the men of Baia' could have 
been Langobards I did not mean Langobards from Italy. By that time 
(perhaps the first half of the 5th century, and earlier) the 
Langobards were situated in the area of Bohemia (i.e. Baia). I believe 
that Scheurer is right in the following article, where he shows on the 
basis of archaeological evidence that the first Bajuvarii arrived 
around 400AD in the area of Straubing, Althmuehltal etc. coming from 
Bohemia. 

http://www.bingo-ev.de/~ks451/archaeol/kemath01.htm

The people, or at least one of the peoples, who had just arrived in 
Bohemia were the Langobards. Scheurer argues that the first Germanic 
settlers were attracted to the area by the prospect of Roman military 
service and they started to settle at a time when the area was still 
part of the Roman empire. These people may have been formed into a 
'proper' tribe of Bajuvari under the influence of the Ostrogoths in 
the late 5th century. 

Scheuerer writes: "Dagegen konnte man über die modisch beeinflußten
Gewandfibeln der Zeit Importe oder einen Zuzug neuer Siedler aus 
Thüringen oder Franken, von den Alamannen, Langobarden, Ostgoten oder 
Burgundern gut nachweisen." (... imports or in-migration of settlers 
from Thuringia, the Franks, Alamanns, Langobards, Ostrogoths and 
Burgundians can be well demonstrated)


cheers
Dirk

PS Did you know that Bavaria is the oldest state in Europe; that has 
been in uninterrupted existence since about 520AD. At least that is 
what the Bavarians say;-)



--- In gothic-l at y..., cstrohmier at y... wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
> 	Thanks for the information; you've given me some new ideas to 
> think about and some areas to explore.  I think your idea about the 
> six leading houses of Bavaria is very interesting, and it merits 
> further investigation.
> 	I'm not familiar with the Thuringian Kingdom.  Awhile back 
> you sent to Gothic-List an interesting report about an East Germanic 
> castle in Thuringia called Funkenburg and about East Germanic 
> settlements stretching from Silesia to Hesse; would these be 
> connected with a possible immigration from Thuringia to Bavaria?
> 	 The Langobards are an interesting people.  I have read that 
> their king wore a crown called the Iron Crown, which was trimmed in 
> gold, and which contained one of the iron nails used to crucify 
> Christ.  The Langobards connection with the Bavarians is also 
> interesting, but I am very skeptical about the idea that they were 
> the first Bavarians.
> 	The Tyrol is a part of Austria in the Bavarian speech 
> region.  Concerning the Tyrol, "Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia" 
> says:  "During Roman Empire times, it was the province of Raetia.  
In 
> the 5th century the Ostrogoths Teutonized the northern part, while 
> the Teutonic Langobards (Lombards) who invaded the southern part 
> became Romanized.  Thus the Tyrol early acquired its dual character" 
> (volume 14, page 232b).  The same encyclopedia says of Lombardy:  
"It 
> takes its name from the barbarian Lombard hordes who overran it in 
> the 6th century.  These people were the last Germanic invaders of 
> Italy.  They pressed down from the north in A.D. 568 within 15 years 
> after the emperor Justinian had expelled the East Goths" (volume 8, 
> page 279).  These quotes are important for several reasons.
> 	The first quote shows that the Ostrogoths did "Teutonize" at 
> least part of the Bavarian speech region long before the southern 
> part of the Ostrogothic Kingdom began to founder.  It also shows 
that 
> the Gothic influence on Lombardic is not directly connected to 
Gothic 
> refugees.  The second quote is even more interesting.  The southern 
> part of the Ostrogothic Kingdom fell in about 555; the Lombards 
> arrived 13 years later in 568.  This is interesting because the 
> Lombards arrived in the area after the Bavarians were already 
settled 
> in Bavaria.  
> 	In 551, a Goth named Jordannes wrote a work called 
> the "Getica", or "The History of the Goths", and in it he mentions 
> the Bavarians (the Baiovari) who were already settled in Bavaria: 
> "LV (280) After a certain time, when the wintry cold was at hand, 
the 
> river Danube was frozen over as usual. For a river like this freezes 
> so hard that it will support like a solid rock an army of foot-
> soldiers and wagons and carts and whatsoever vehicles there may 
be,--
> nor is there need of skiffs and boats. So when Thiudimer, king of 
the 
> Goths, saw that it was frozen, he led his army across the Danube and 
> appeared unexpectedly to the Suavi from the rear. Now this country 
of 
> the Suavi has on the east the Baiovari, on the west the Franks, on 
> the south the Burgundians and on the north the Thuringians. (281) 
> With the Suavi there were present the Alamanni, then their 
> confederates, who also ruled the Alpine heights, whence several 
> streams flow into the Danube, pouring in with a great rushing sound. 
> Into a place thus fortified King Thiudimer led his army in the 
winter-
> time and conquered, plundered and almost subdued the race of the 
> Suavi as well as the Alamanni, who were mutually banded together. 
> Thence he returned as victor to his own home in Pannonia and 
joyfully 
> received his son Theodoric, once given as hostage to Constantinople 
> and now sent back by the Emperor Leo with great gifts. (282) Now 
> Theodoric had reached man's estate, for he was eighteen years of age 
> and his boyhood was ended."  One supposes that if the Bavarians were 
> Suavi or Alamanni, they would have allied themselves with their 
> neighbors against the Goths, and that Thiudimer, King of the Goths, 
> would have attacked them too.  It is interesting to note that 
> Jordannes does not present the Bavarians as Suevi, Alamanni, 
> Thuringians, or Marcomanni.  (In Chapters XVI [89] and XXII [113] 
> Jordannes mentiones the Marcomanni, but he does not connect them 
with 
> the Bavarians.)  In any case, this clearly shows that the Bavarians 
> were in Bavaria long before the Lombard invasions began.  In 
> addition, I have two sets of encyclopedia dates which give the time-
> frame for the Bavarian settlement in Bavaria:  A.D. 488-520 and A.D. 
> 489-539.  Both of these dates about thirty years before the arrival 
> of the Lombards.
> 	The "New Catholic Encyclopedia says:  "After the Agilolfing 
> House had attained domination in Bavaria under the suzerainty of the 
> Franks (c. 550), the Irish and Frankish mission began.  The 
> missionaries Eustace and Agilus, who came fom Luxeuil, had only 
> limited success.  The work of the missionary bishops Emmeram, 
Rupert, 
> and Corbinian (c. 700) was much more lasting and effective" (page 
> 175).  This too clearly shows that the Bavarians were already 
settled 
> in Bavaria before the time of the Langobards, that the Bavarians 
> turned to the Franks for protection when the southern part of the 
> Ostrogothic Kingdom was collapsing, and that the Bavarians were not 
> the Catholic Marcomanni.
> 	For these reasons I do not consider it likely that the 
> Langobards are the first Bavarians; however, it is entirely possible 
> that when the peoples of the areas "Teutonized"  by the Ostrogoths 
> came into close proximity with the Langobards, they may have 
affected 
> each others' languages through linguistic sharing; merchants from 
> these areas may have carried these changes to towns and cities 
> throughout Southern Germany, perhaps setting off the Second German 
> Sound Shift.   So in this sense, Dirk, I think you may be right, 
that 
> some of these characteristics may have occured indirectly and may 
> have involved the Langobards.
> Sincerely yours,
> Cory 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > Hi Cory and Francisc,
> > 
> > your discussion is really interesting. I think one of the 
arguments 
> > against a Gothic mission to Bavaria is based on the fact that the 
> > Arian church was never really focused on missionary work in 
> general. 
> > However, one thing is obvious Theoderic was keen to secure the 
> borders 
> > of his realm once the conquest of Italy was complete. In some 
cases 
> he 
> > sought marriage alliances while he resorted to war against the 
> Gepids 
> > in order to secure the important north-eastern gate-way into 
Italy. 
> > The Bajuvari were at the northern border of the Ostrogothic 
kingdom 
> at 
> > a strategically important position. Controlling Bavaria could 
> > potentially help to thwart Frankish attempts to expand east and 
> > south-eastwards. The Thuringian kingdom was also allied with the 
> > Ostrogoths to a similar end. However, in Bavaria I suppose that 
the 
> > Ostrogoths might have seen a chance for more direct intervention. 
> It 
> > has been argued that some of the administrative divisions of 
> Bavaria 
> > were put into place by the Goths. 
> > 
> > I agree with Corey, that the ways of political and linguistic 
> > influence of the Goths on Bavaria is probably more complicated 
than 
> > missions and refugees, but I am slightly more sceptical about a 
> real 
> > 'influx' of actual Goths into Bavaria. I would propose a more 
> indirect 
> > scenario. It is an established fact that the Bavarian dukedom was 
> > closely related with the Langobardic kingdom in Italy. We know 
that 
> > some Langobardic kings spend much of their lifetime in Bavaria and 
> the 
> > last Langobardic kings are often called the Bavarian dynasty. 
After 
> > the fall of the Ostrogothic kingdom, the Goths did not vanish from 
> > Italy, but basically blended into the local and new Langobardic 
> > population. As  such Gothic will likely have made some impression 
> on 
> > Langobardic, and this influence could have been carried through 
> > Langobards/Goths to Bavaria.
> > 
> > I believe one area where a linguistic and other influence should 
be 
> > visible is personal names. Bavaria has to this day a number of 
> > peculiar personal names that could portray an East Germanic (not 
> > necessarily Gothic) influence. Thus, we have otherwise unknown 
male 
> > names like Tassilo, Odilo/Uatila and Athala, but also Otakar which 
> is 
> > directly derived from Odoaker. Interestingly, a lead-name of the 
> > Bavarian Agilofing ducal house was Fara. This name may have been 
> > brought to Bavaria, by the Herul prince of that name who became 
> also 
> > duke of Bavaria. In addition, Fara was also a lead-name of some 
> > Langobardic ducal houses.
> > 
> > In contrast to Corey I believe that Bavarian is essentially a West 
> > Germanic language and that the 'men from Baia', where initially 
> > Langobards and later after the 530s Thuringians. These were 
> > supplemented by East Germanic splinter groups such as Skiri (who 
> have 
> > given their name to Scheyern/Skirensis in Bavaria), Rugians near 
> > Passau and Heruls in Austro-Bavaria (where we may even have 
> placenames 
> > based on the Herul name), as well as some Goths and 'Italian 
> > Langobards'. 
> > 
> > I wonder if the so- called 5 'Genealogiae', i.e. the five leading 
> > early Bajuvarian families in the 6th and 7th  centuries: the 
Huosi, 
> > Fagana, Hahhilinga, Draozza and Anniona plus the Agilofing dukes 
> are 
> > not the ruling clans of 5 or 6 different tribal groups. Is anybody 
> > aware of an interpretation of these names?
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Dirk


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