[gothic-l] Goths and Bavaria

[Le Bateman]

Does anyone know Matt Carver's email address his old one does not work.
----- Original Message -----
From: <keth at online.no>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Goths and Bavaria


Hello Dirk!
Yes, I was also impressed by Cory's detailed historic knowledge of
Bavaria. Her post was so solid that I felt there was nothing I could add.
It is odd with really good posts, that they frequently do not get answered,
because they seem so comlete that nobody has anything to add.

Cory also referred to Brockhaus. However, when I went to look there,
I found nothing, except the standard dictionary entries that Bavarian
history begins in the sixth century with the "Einmarsch der Bajuwaren"
who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
the Boii?)  And then also a mention of Agilwulf and the "Agilolfingen"
dynasty.

However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas Bayern
is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
"deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken in
Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! !  Now why didn't that come up on the list
as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd Tirol,
with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch (linguist-
ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I
found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years ago,
after having spent many months in Tirol.

You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred strictly to
the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat Bayern.
But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.

However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
especially to my ear)

What should also be discussed when Bayern is discussed, is that its
present area perhaps only gives a very approximate indication of
its area in the 6th century. Any way, it is well know that "Milano"
is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called
"Mailand", and consulting the map shows that "Mailand" is in fact
the major city of Lombardia. Tirol must earlier have extended rather
far south. Perhaps as far as Verona? From the map I see that it is
approx. 150 kilometers from Bozen to Verona. And so I think the
discussion might be much clarified if one specifies where one
envisions the old 5th century language borders, as well as what
areas that were then conceived of as  Bayern and Lombardia.
Raetia it also said. That was the old name of Baiern, before
the Bavarians came.

Best regards
Keth




>Hi Cory and Francisc,
>
>your discussion is really interesting. I think one of the arguments
>against a Gothic mission to Bavaria is based on the fact that the
>Arian church was never really focused on missionary work in general.
>However, one thing is obvious Theoderic was keen to secure the borders
>of his realm once the conquest of Italy was complete. In some cases he
>sought marriage alliances while he resorted to war against the Gepids
>in order to secure the important north-eastern gate-way into Italy.
>The Bajuvari were at the northern border of the Ostrogothic kingdom at
>a strategically important position. Controlling Bavaria could
>potentially help to thwart Frankish attempts to expand east and
>south-eastwards. The Thuringian kingdom was also allied with the
>Ostrogoths to a similar end. However, in Bavaria I suppose that the
>Ostrogoths might have seen a chance for more direct intervention. It
>has been argued that some of the administrative divisions of Bavaria
>were put into place by the Goths.
>
>I agree with Corey, that the ways of political and linguistic
>influence of the Goths on Bavaria is probably more complicated than
>missions and refugees, but I am slightly more sceptical about a real
>'influx' of actual Goths into Bavaria. I would propose a more indirect
>scenario. It is an established fact that the Bavarian dukedom was
>closely related with the Langobardic kingdom in Italy. We know that
>some Langobardic kings spend much of their lifetime in Bavaria and the
>last Langobardic kings are often called the Bavarian dynasty. After
>the fall of the Ostrogothic kingdom, the Goths did not vanish from
>Italy, but basically blended into the local and new Langobardic
>population. As  such Gothic will likely have made some impression on
>Langobardic, and this influence could have been carried through
>Langobards/Goths to Bavaria.
>
>I believe one area where a linguistic and other influence should be
>visible is personal names. Bavaria has to this day a number of
>peculiar personal names that could portray an East Germanic (not
>necessarily Gothic) influence. Thus, we have otherwise unknown male
>names like Tassilo, Odilo/Uatila and Athala, but also Otakar which is
>directly derived from Odoaker. Interestingly, a lead-name of the
>Bavarian Agilofing ducal house was Fara. This name may have been
>brought to Bavaria, by the Herul prince of that name who became also
>duke of Bavaria. In addition, Fara was also a lead-name of some
>Langobardic ducal houses.

Odoacer is the same as "Oddvar

>In contrast to Corey I believe that Bavarian is essentially a West
>Germanic language and that the 'men from Baia', where initially
>Langobards and later after the 530s Thuringians. These were
>supplemented by East Germanic splinter groups such as Skiri (who have
>given their name to Scheyern/Skirensis in Bavaria), Rugians near
>Passau and Heruls in Austro-Bavaria (where we may even have placenames
>based on the Herul name), as well as some Goths and 'Italian
>Langobards'.
>
>I wonder if the so- called 5 'Genealogiae', i.e. the five leading
>early Bajuvarian families in the 6th and 7th  centuries: the Huosi,
>Fagana, Hahhilinga, Draozza and Anniona plus the Agilofing dukes are
>not the ruling clans of 5 or 6 different tribal groups. Is anybody
>aware of an interpretation of these names?
>
>cheers,
>Dirk
>
>
>
>
>You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




----------------------------------------------------
NetZero Platinum
Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month!
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Small business owners...
Tell us what you think!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/