[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Hi Dirk
>
> I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
> webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
regarding
> Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
proof
> and sources regarding the geneology below?





Hi Troels,

the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
standard literature on the subject such as:

Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen und
Bajuwaren,"  Wiesbaden 1983

some notes on the duke Fara are also  in

Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",

For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also has
 virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
Royal Geneologies' at:

http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian


I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic royal
house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly that
some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
others moved to Scandinavia.

Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it appears
to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed into
the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an area
with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing the
thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for resistance.
What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact, often
the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule by
marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))

For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
could support a continued power base in the area. What should also not
be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg, Passau
or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the uncertainty
of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
Scandinavia was the only option for them.

What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members of
the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people of
several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite, without
any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known to
have formed a large part of the population in these areas.

cheers,

Dirk














>
> Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
> Alamanni?
>
> Troels
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cory and Keth,
> >
> > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
> influences
> > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
> > house, the Agilofings.
> >
> > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
> > something like this:
> >
> >
> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
> >
> > son:
> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
> >
> > first son of Fara:
> > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
> > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
> >
> > second son of Fara:
> > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
> > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
> >
> > children of Garibald:
> > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
Kings)
> > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
> >
> >
> >
> > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
> > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
was
> > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
> >
> >
> > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
> > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
> > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
> > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
least
> a
> > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > Dirk


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