[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

[Troels Brandt]

Hi Dirk

I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago.

When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron,
Ellegaard e.t.c. - just like you - and some Danish literature too. I
was really surprised when I afterwards read a translation of
Procopius' own text. I am sure I had not made so many mistakes in the
beginning, if I had first read Procopius, then the other authors,
then the comparable sources and then Procopius again.

My advise is: Don't do the same mistake as I did. I am glad that only
a few people heard about my preliminary results based on the indirect
sources alone.

Troels


--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>
> >
> > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
> > between Andreas, you and me
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
> > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.
>
> Hi Troels,
>
> saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
> common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read
Procopius
> and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
> all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
> also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have
used.
> You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
> vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For
example
> some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
> Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius
could
> have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a
distorted
> picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
> some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
> from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his
informers
> is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
> not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
> actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
> interpretations must be considered.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ........
> > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
> > common
> > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
> > > > information we have about the Heruls.
> > >
> > >
> > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
> > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
> > history
> > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources.
Actual 'use'
> > of
> > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to
people
> > like
> > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
> > > behaviour. In  general, it is this common sense (lets not call
it
> > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the
best
> > > leads if sources are scarce.
> > >
> > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
> > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
> > around
> > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the
reliability
> > and
> > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
> > >
> >
> > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
> > history based on our expectations according to common sense
instead
> > of using the sources we have - even when the result is
unexpected -
> I
> > think we mix sources and testing tools.
>
>
> Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
> history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
> impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
> events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why
he
> may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
> expected instead of blindly believing his every word.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dirk


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