[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I did not ask about the Fennae. Taking your
manipulation-theories
> > > in other connections in consideration, I expect your answer on
> > > the two questions about the midnightsun before opening the
> > > discussion again. Take your time if that is what you need.
>
> > Troels
>
> > as long as you accuse me of presenting 'manipulation-theories'
> > there is really no point in discussing this matter further.
>
> Dirk
>
> This must be a misunderstanding due to my language rather than an
> evasion. I did not write that you were manipulating, if this is your
> problem, but you have from the beginning accused Procopius to
> manipulate both the names and the story about the Heruls in order to
> show, that it was possible to repatriate the barbarians. Normally
you
> have referred to a theory about such a manipulation presented by
> Goffart, but this motive does not cover the description of the
> midnightsun and the source for that. This should also be a lie as it
> contradicts Goffart.
>
> Troels


Hi Troels,

ok, this was a misunderstanding.

However, concerning Procopius I would say that he was trying to
manipulate in the sense that he wanted his readers to see barbarians
in general and the Heruls in particular in a certain light.

Yet, it must be clear that Procopius had a very low opinion of the
Germanic people in general. He frequently called them treacherous and
drunkards. Thus, about the Heruls, Procopius said that it is
'remarable for them to be not treacherous or drunken'. He also comes
up with all kind of customs for the Heruls, arguing that they kill the
sick people, by calling upon a stranger to kill them by tying them
to trees and burning them alive. Also, he stated that they killed
their old people. Some writers even argued that this reflected
Scandinavian practices thus underlying their ties with Scandinavia.
However, at the same time the same authors make no mention of another
'customs' of the Heruls that Procopius informs us about. Thus,
Procopius tells us that even after becoming Christians the "Heruls
continued to mate with donkeys" and remained the most disgusting kind
of creature.

How should we treat this information Troels? Was this also provided
by Scandinavian traders or Scandinavian Heruls visiting their brethren
in the South, as Bertil wrote?

Procopius saw all Germanic people as treacherous drunkards, but the
Heruls were in his eyes the worst scum around. Calling them sodomists
placed them on the same level as animals and this is exactly how
Procopius wanted to present them.

You ask me several times: why would Procopius lie? Einar said
repeatedly that Procopius was trustworthy and reliable and Tore said
that we should simply believe what Procopius wrote. However, I would
turn this around and ask why would Procopius care to tell us a fair
and accurate account of the history of the Heruls if he held such a
low opion of them? In my view this makes it very unlikely that
Procopius would have taken the trouble to get first hand reports from
Herulic mercenaries or traders. He hated the Heruls and he could not
even restrain himself from hurling the worst of abuse at them in his
writing. Yet, those scholars who want to believe in Procopius simply
ignore this, because it would cast serious doubts on his overall
credibility.

The foremost expert on Procopius, A. Cameron writes about this:

"Most scholars naturally not wishing to forego the data, recognise the
ethnographic cliches, yet persist in supposing that Procopius had
access to good information from chatty barbarians hes is supposed to
have met while in the Byzantine army. But a few examples show how
tricky the problem actuall is,...."


Then she goes on to explain that Procopius used all sorts of
stereotypes, mixed with ethnographic and geographic information  from
ancient writers and supplemented with the product of his own fantasy
and hatred. Cameron states that for Procopius, barbarians had to be
used by the empire in its wars thus anihilating one group of barbarian
with the other, or alternatively they had to be dispatched to the end
of the world. I.e. ultima Thule or Scandia, which according to ancient
geographers was the most disgusting place not fit for humans to live
on. Thus, in Procopius' eyes Thule was just fine for the animal-like
Heruls.

cheers,
Dirk








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