[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[Troels Brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>
> >
> > Dirk,
> >
> > As I have stated before, Procopius wrote for the Romans
(Byzantines)
> > at a time when Datius and many of the Illyrian Heruls joined the
> > Gepides against the Lombards and the Romans. The Heruls had now
as
> > traitors turned against Suartuas (one of Procopius' probable
> sources)
> > and the Romans, who had lost face in their politics against the
> > Heruls, and as always in a war the bad character of the enemy was
> > exaggerated, and probably Procopius knew individual cases, where
> this
> > was true - except maybe the "ass-joke".
>
>
> Troels,
>
> I don't think that Procopius' can be so easily excused. He labled
> Germanic people in general as traitors, drunkards and in the case
of
> the Heruls, sodomists. This was regardsless of their relationship
to
> the empire. Dismissing his remarks as 'joke' is exactly what
Cameron
> has warned against, stating that some people would do this in order
to
> defend Procopius' overall creditbility as it suited them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This was usual colourful
> > propaganda and explaining away from Procopius' side, which was
not
> > the same as to tell lies about actual events wellknown by the
> > readers - the most certain way to loose the confidence of the
> > readers.
>
>
> No, I continue to agree with Cameron and believe that Procopius'
> remarks about the Heruls as sodomists who killed their sick people
by
> burning etc. where outright lies, because if was not completely
naive
> he must have known this to be untrue. Inclusion of lies in one
instant
> and wrong and inaccurate information in other instances does
devalue
> his accounts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Romans of importance around Procopius must have known that Datius
> > arrived from Thule, which the Heruls left for 35 years before,
but
> > Procopius never described their ancestral home as Thule and he
did
> > not tell about a successful repatriation there.
>
>
> No other source reported about Datius and the events surrounding
them,
>  indicating that it was at best not deemed to be important enough
to
> be included in a chronicle. Especially was it not important enough
for
> Romans to remember events surroundind these Heruls that took place
10
> or more years ago.  Sources like the tabula gentis of 520AD simply
> does not know of any Herul kingdom after 508AD.
>
>
>
>
> He wrote that
> > they "used to dwell beyound the Danaube", and actually Datius did
> not
> > return to Thule again, but joined the Gepides "beyound the
Danube".
> > Actually Goffart only referred to the migration to Thule and not
to
> > the return of Datius as far as I remember. If the information
which
> > Datius returned from an earlier position next to the Gautoi was a
> lie
> > with the purpose to argue for repatriation, this was either a
very
> > miserable attempt or already fulfilled, when they joined the
> Gepides.
>
>
> I cannot defend Goffarts view, as it is not my own. In my
> understanding Goffart tried to  explained Jordanes' and
Cassiodorus'
> desire to promote an integration of the Goths into mediteranean
world.
>  Goffart said that Jordanes was keen to show that the Goths had no
> were to go, but to stay in Italy. Thus, Jordanes explained that
> Thule/Scandza was so inhositable that no one in his right mind
would
> want to go their. Therefore Goffart contrasted this intention of
> Jordanes' with the report by Procopius who stated that barbarians
> could easily travel to the end of the earth without any danger or
> difficulty.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I think that the motive maintained by Goffart (and you) is a
learned
> > construction, which Goffart needed for his Jordanes-theory, as
the
> > real motive probably is lying just under our noses as
demonstrated
> > above.
>
>
> What was demonstrated above?
>
>
>
>
>
> > The description of the midnightsun is independent both of my and
> your
> > version of the motive for his general description of the Heruls
and
> > their history, but it tells us something important about his
sources
> > and the value of his information about the contemporary events -
and
> > this is the only information I care about.
>
>
> But the description of the mid-night sun was also provided by
Jordanes
> and Cassiodorus and was clearly available from ancient geographical
> sources. I don't see who this is so important. I know procopius
said
> that he made inquiries and spoke to people, but he also stated that
> other information that he provided was the truth, while we know
that
> it was not.
>
>
>
>
> We got this further
> > repetition of our old discussions because of a misunderstanding,
but
> > please explain the motive and earlier sources behind VI, xv 6-15.
> > Tore provided us with a part of the text.
> >
>
> I have my Procopius volumes at home in Germany unfortunately.
>

> >>
> >
> >I have my Procopius volumes at home in Germany unfortunately.
> >
> >
> >cheers,
> >Dirk
>
> Dirk,
> Don't you trust me qouting Procopius.
> I have three books of Procoupius in Loeb Clasical library which
covers
> Procopius books I-VI.
> I think this edition is acceptable.
> On top of this there is the Greek version on the left pages.
> Tore

> Tore,

> I completely trust you qouting from Procopius. I was in such
> a hurry, that I did not read the last sentence that Troels
> wrote. I shall try to find your quotes.


Dirk,

Your problem above was just the reason for my advice in MSG 5131
regarding this question: "Take your time". Remember our earlier
letters and concentrate on the contemporary events in Procopius. You
are wasting our time attacking these non-committal characteristics
with all these words. This kind of smear-campaigns are usual in our
time too. Furthermore I am not sure he was so wrong as you claim, and
actually the historians used similar descriptions of the Vikings 500
years later - I shall spare you to use this similarity as an argument
against you.

Please notice: I am not asking for a description of the midnightsun,
I am asking for THIS description of the midnightsun.

Troels




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