[gothic-l] Re: Heruls and Archaeology

Wed Dec 5 09:42:15 UTC 2001

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Dirk,
>
> It has been stated that the Heruls were Eastgermanics and not Huns,
> and we know they revolted against and left the Huns 50 years before
> they went to Scandinavia.

Troels,

that is true, but several authors, including Werner, Tejral and Pohl
have pointed out that they probably the most 'hunnized' of all
Germanic people. If a cultural influence of Hunnic domination remained
visible among the Thuringians into the 6th century, one may expect it
to remain visible among Heruls as well.

> Therefore most of your German analyzes
> below are irrelevant in relation to Procopius and the Heruls, and
the
> brief changes regarding the Saxons tells a lot.

I think I showed that archaeologist can identify sufficiantly large
migrations in the material cultures. That was the point that I was
trying to make and I think it was relevant.

>
> You do not mention that the official archaeological periods in
> Denmark and Sweden changed (due to changes in burials, offerings and
> military), when the Heruls settled - just to choose the most
> significant general change - but I will not blame you being a German
> in London that your Scandinavian sources are limited.

Since you are a Swede in Sweden, you could perhaps suggest some
mainstream archaeological literature on Swedish archaeology that
covers that period. I shall ask somebody at the Swedish Archaeological
 Society if they have an answer.

>
> We do not know the characteristics of the Heruls and until now I
have
> not found any archaeologist investigating that problem related to
> Scandinavia.

There are some indications about the characteristics of a culture
carried by the Heruls. Even if graves attributed to them by authors
like Tejral and Werner were not Herulic they would still belong firmly
to some sort of East Germanic cultural group, which are well defined
and identifiable.

Most of the Scandinavian scholars covering that period
> have analyzed the connections to Western Europe (Franks, Lombards
and
> Alamans) but very seldom the connections to the former
Czeckoslovakia.
>
> However the discussion you want to provoke will lead you nowhere.

I don't want to 'provoke' anything or anybody. But after all this is a
discussion group and its sole purpose is to 'initiate' and lead
discussions, even if the outcome is not what you hope it would.

It
> has not been proved by archaeology, that the Heruls settled in
> Sweden, and neither has it been proved that they did not - and as
you
> already know from other discussions, you will not do it in this way.
> You have to wait.

I have no clear overview of Swedish archaeological literature, so I
would not know for what to wait or how long to wait. Maybe the answer
is already out there. BTW, why this agressive tone? If you don't want
this discussion don't participate. Others may have ideas that they
wish to bring in and may find an exchange about it interesting, even
if we can't break the limits of current scientific boundaries.

cheers,
Dirk

>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > I tried to verify suggestions that a Herulic migration to
> Scandinavia
> > was reflected in a change in the archaeological cultures of Sweden
> > and/or even affected a massive cultural change in form of the
> creation
> > of the Vendel culture.
> >
> > Firstly, in the process of checking some sources I discovered that
> I
> > was wrong when I earlier said that the Saxons who returned from
> Italy
> > are not identified by archaeology. In Studien zur Sachsenforschung
> No.
> > 13, 1999, it is clear that archaeologists are able to show that
> these
> > Saxons really did re-settle in the Harzvorland, just as Gregory of
> > Tours had said.
> >
> > Yet, I could not find any source on Swedish archaeology that
stated
> > that an influx of Heruls or any other East Germanic culture was
> > responsible for cultural changes in Sweden or is even detectable.
> > Especially J. Werner, who analysed the archaeology of the Attila
> > period and the spread of cultural influences caused by the Huns
> found
> > apparently no trace of this in Scandinavia. In this context, the
> > appearance of occasional East Germanic or Mediterranean cultural
> > objects is not very significant. Archaeologists seem to be looking
> for
> > changes in customs that can be linked to another culture. As an
> > example of what sort of archaeological evidence would be
indicative
> of
> > a East Germanic migration to Scandinavia I would like to briefly
> line
> > out the recent finding in German archaeology, which is
particularly
> > relevant to this list.
> >
> > Prof. Berthold Schmidt found (Studien zur Sachsenforschung No. 13,
> > 1999) that in the aftermath of the arrival of the Huns in south
> > eastern Europe, carriers of the Gothic Chernyahkovsk culture and
> the
> > Sintana de Mures Culture moved into Middle-Germany. According to
> > Schmidt, this constituted a migration that is not attested in the
> > historical sources, but which was nonetheless of substantial size.
> It
> > led in the last quarter of the 4th century to the creation of the
> so
> > called 'Niemberger Gruppe' and 'Grossbadegaster Gruppe' in middle
> > Germany, which is a direct continuation of the Sintana de Mures
and
> > western Chernyakhovsk cultures.
> >
> > Apart from decorations etc. one of the characteristics of this
> culture
> > are the way in which bodies were placed in the graves. Thus, one
> way
> > was to place them on their face. This influx of East Germanic
> people
> > may have been significant in the Thuringian ethnogenesis. The
> > Thuringians are first mentioned in 400AD. From the 420s/30s actual
> > conflict with Huns is demonstrated by the grave material in
> Thuringia.
> > Burials of the Niemberger Gruppe show frequent battle wounds
> including
> > nomadic arrowheads in the wounds. From 430AD the area came under
> > Hunnic domination, with nomadic weaponry and decorations appearing
> in
> > rich graves. Also, the custom of artificial skull deformations
> becomes
> > very widespread in Thuringia. Some 50% of the artificially
deformed
> > skull show 'mongolic' features. The dating was made possible by
the
> > discovery of a 20-year old Germanic woman, who died in about 450AD
> and
> > who's skull had been deformed in early childhood. The Hunnic
> influence
> > starts to fade after the battle at the Nedao, but artificial skull
> > deformations remain in custom until the first third of the 6th
> > century.
> >
> > While this is an interesting example of a migration that can only
> be
> > identified by its archaeological evidence, it seems to be
> informative
> > for the indications that we would have to expect if Heruls had
> > migrated to Scandinavia. Thus, one would need cultural
> characteristics
> > that can be linked directly to the East Germanic groups in
Moravia.
> I
> > particular should archaeological evidence reflect the arrival of
> new
> > customs like burial practices. Pohl has also emphasised the
> widespread
> > use of artificial skull deformations among graves attributed to
> > Heruls.
> >
> > I have tried to find archaeological reports about Sweden covering
> the
> > period and areas in question. One such report seemed to explain
the
> > appearance of the Vendel culture around Uppsala with the
> exploitation
> > of iron mining. Somewhat older authors like Terjal (1970s) and
> Werner
> > (1950s), who are mainly concerned with the archaeology of the
> > Attila-period. make no mention of East Germanic cultures in
> > Scandinavia. However, there could be more up-to-date research and
> it
> > might be interesting to pose the question of whether or not anEast
> > Germanic culture has entered Sweden around 500AD.
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > Dirk

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