[gothic-l] Re: Heruls and Archaeology-Etymologi-Connection:Heruli-Skaldship
einarbirg
einarbirg at YAHOO.COM
Fri Dec 7 13:13:43 UTC 2001
--- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
>
Einar; Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your response.
> Einar,
>
> Glad you found the info of value. It is fascinating
> that modern Icelandic has the same word. But
> the original is not Erulic, as far as I understand.
Einar; I do not think I claimed so. I said that Icelanders seem to
be using the same phrase/sayings as the Heruli MIGHT have.
But I would never claim that the words are exactly the same.That is
written or pronounced in the same fashion.
So in your opinion. The origin of the word?
Usually they state in the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook if a word
is a relative newcomer or was not used in the earliest Icelandic
literature. They do not so here. I have a reason to belief that this
word "ætternisstapi" has been used in Iceland at least from pagan
times. Old legends seem to indicate that. And there are about 1000-
1100 years since this pagan period.
And how old is Gautrek´s Saga were this word is used.?
If this word seems to have been in use from the settlement of Iceland
then I see no reason to not seeing it as a possibility that this word
and the phrase ´ganga fyrir ætternisstapa´ could be much older.
That is used in Scandinavia or even more south at the time, groups of
Heruli moved to Scandinavia.
And the place name ´stapi´ is from the settlement period in Iceland.
And seems to have the same meaning now as then.
> In modern Swedish the word is aettestupa. The word
> was possibly constructed in the 17th century and has
> a connection to Smaaland. Stupa means 'steep
> place' and stup is a common Swedish name related
> to the verb stupa 'fall down from exhaustion'.
Einar, It can well be that this Swedish word is constructed in the
17th Century. This word has anyway nothing to do with
´ætternisstapi´. At least not etymologically.
You say it your self that in Gautrek´s Saga the word there used is;
´aetternisstapi´. That is the same word as the above mentioned
Icelandic one. And carries exactly the same meaning.
I see here in the I.E.W this word ´stupa´. It is the same word as in
Swedish ´stupa´.That is the same word with similar meaning , we have
in Icelandic.And it is a very old word in Icelandic. I see that the
Swedish meaning is as you claim.
The problem is that ´stapi´ and ´stupa´ are not etymologically
connected. These are totally different words,with different meanings.
Maybe the Swedish word ´aettestupa´ is constructed on the older word
´ætternisstapi´. I do not know.
´stapi´in Swedish seems not to be known! apart from in some Swedish
dialect as ´stäpu´ which means ´churchtower´.
> On Alvith, that is just one possibility I mentioned, so
> your alternatives might well be more likely. The same goes
> for Hariso where many other meanings come to light.
> On Hordar we can go back to Iordanes' Aroch = *(h)aruthi,
> who possibly lived in Hordaland on the Stavanger Fiord.
>
> On Hrordwulf you have Germanic hrod which means
> fame, glory, honour, in my opinion a most likely
> connection.
Einar; No it does not mean honor.But it can mean; fame and glory.
In Old English it meant honor(one of the meanings). It was written as
´hreð´.
I think you are mixing together the Old High German word ´hrod,hruad´
that was used as a part in men´s names and the Old High German word
´hruom´(´ruhm´ in New High German) which can mean ´honor´(but have
other meanings too).
They state it clearly that ´hrod,huad´ is related to ´hruom´ which
means ´hrós,heiður,hróp´.Hrós means; praise,compliment. Heiður means;
honor. Hróp means;loud call,yell,shouting.
These meanings are totally different from the meanings of ´hrod,hruad´
For translation of ´hrod,hruad´ (English). See my previous letter.
So you can not translate the ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ as meaning ´honor´.
It is a wrong translation. You are mixing those two words(compared
together above) with different meanings together.
´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ means ´frægð,orðstír;kveðskapur,kvæði´. I
translated that in my previous letter.
This ; in between orðstír and kveðskapur I do not know how to
interprete. I think I will have to have a specialits opinion on this
word. Can take some time.
Maybe it means that the fame,reputation of that person was somehow
connected to Skaldship and poetry.! But I do not know. I will try to
find out.
I think this is very interesting because here we see a connection
between Heruli names and the art of Skaldship.
The meaning of the word beeing discussed is not debated. Otherwise
they would state so.
Maybe this ´hróðr,hrod,hruod etc´ were used in names indicating that
the person´s family/kin had knowledge and practiced the art of
Skaldship. And this ´hróður´ was used too in womans names wich is
supportive of Barði Guðmundsson´s conclusions.
(In the book; Origin of the Icelanders)
At least the meaning of the word is; fame,glory,reputation and
somehow connected to Skaldship and poetry.That is can mean Skaldship
and poetry or indicates that the fame,reputation was connected to
knowledge of the art of Skaldship or poetry.
The meaning is; frægð,orðstír; kveðskapur,kvæði. That is documented
by the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook and stated without
reservations as beeing so. They seem always to state if a meaning of
a word is debated or the origin badly or not known.
And that is not done here.
So here we have a good argument for that some of the Heruli families
were/might have been connected to the art of Skaldship.
And that is one of Barði Guðmundsson conclusions.
Erulically, Einar.
>
> Erulically
>
> Bertil
>
>
> Thanks for a very interesting
information.
>
> You mention here the word; aetternisstapi. That word is the same in
> modern Icelandic; ætternisstapi. And is very easily
understandable.
>
> From the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook(I.E.W)
> Actually ´ætt´ does not mean ´family´. It means;
> ´kyn,frændlið,ættbálkur´. Kyn means;
kin,kindred,extraction.
> Frændlið means; your relatives in general. Ættbálkur means;
>
clan,tribe.
> In gothic; ´aihts´ means something you own(that is your property)
and
> in Old Irish; ´icht´ meaning; tribe,clan.
>
> This ´erni´ has no meaning. It is a suffix. Very commonly used in
> Icelandic. Like; bróðerni,faðerni etc.
>
> ´stapi´ means many things. Like; cliff,rock(usually flat on the
> top),small mountain(flat on the top). Very much used in place names
> in
Iceland.
> In Old High German; ´stuof(f)a´.
>
> Why not ´alvitur´?? It means; the wise man,the
> knowledgeable person,the person who knows everything. Well, it
means
> the same in modern Icelandic.
> I think it was one of the names used for Óðinn.That is one of his
> names.
>
> I think that ´hersir´ means; ´höfðingji´(not sheriff). That
> is; chief,headman of a tribe,clan etc,chieftain.
> Same as; *harisja-; that is the Herulic name ´Hariso´. A woman´s
name
> in Old Norse is; ´Hariso´
>
> A related word is; ´hersing´ meaning, ´group,many people´ Somekind
of
> a army, seems to me. Not used today but I understand it.
>
> ´herjan´ is a wolfsname. (according to E.A.Kock 1933). Likely from
> ´herja´ and ´her´. ´her´ means; army,group of figthers.
> ´Herjan´ is one of the names used for Óðinn. Comes from
> ´her´,<*harjanar, that is ´þjóðann,þjóð´ and is a word used for
> descriping the person ruling a army,group of figthers.
>
> I have this from the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook.
>
>
> The name ´(H)aordos´ is the Icelandic name ´Hörður´ that is
> very commonly used today. A man´s name.
> From I.E.W.; Could be from Gotish ´hardus´ but is more likely
> connected to ´Hörðar´ . As an example they take here a Old Swedish
> rune inscription ´Haruþs´(man´s name).
>
> And ´Hörðar´ are the people of ´Hörðaland,Hordaland´ in Norway. The
> origin of the word is not known. Could be, like in Old English
> ´harað,hared´ which means ´forest´ . Could be from Old Irish;
> ´caur,cur´ meaning ´hero´. The origin is debated.
>
> >
> > (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and
> Norway).
>
> Einar: Lot´s of names in Iceland have this ´hróður´ in a name.
> Like; Hróðmar,Hrólfur,Hróðmundur and Hrólfdís(woman´s name).
> The word ´Rudolf´ is two words; ´hróður´and
´wulf´ .
> In Old High German; ´Hrodulf,Hruodolf´. Of course put together from
> the words; ´Hroth´ and ´wolf´.(from Old High German).That is put
> together from; ´hróður´and ´úlfur´(Icelandic).
> The Icelandic name ´Hrólfur´ is the same word as ´Hruodwulf,Hrodulf´
> (from Old High German) from ´hróður´ and ´úlfur´. The name
> ´Hrólfur´means; ´famous wolf´
>
> I do not agree that ´hróður´ means ´honor´. And that is not the
> meaning in modern Icelandic.
> According to I.E.W then ´hróður´ means;
> ´frægð,orðstír,kveðskapur,kvæði´. Frægð is; fame,glory. Orðstír
> means; fame,reputation,celebrity and more. Kveðskapur means;
> Skaldship,poetry. Kvæði
means;poem,verse,song.
>
> In gothic ´hroþeigs´. Meaning ´sigursæll,frægur´. Sigursæll means
> that he wins many battles. Frægur means; famous.
> In Old Sax.´hroð´ meaning ´fame,glory´.
>
> So here you have evidence that some Herulic names were connected to
> poetry and Skaldship. Is that not very good! I find it good at
least.
>
> And the Icelandic word ´hróðugur´ is connected to the Gotish word
> ´hroþeigs´ which means ´sigursæll´ (see above)
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
More information about the Gothic-l
mailing list