[gothic-l] Heruls and Archaeology-Etymologi-Connection:Heruli-Skaldship

Fri Dec 7 16:12:46 UTC 2001

Einar,

Well, in that case, I have no objection. 

Concerning the Gautrek Saga it is a Westgoeta saga
and was published in 1664 by Olof Verelius, a Swedish historian.
Gautrek was a Vaestergoetland king, father of the hero
Rolf Gautreksson. There must in my opinion also be
a connection between Gautrek - Gaut - Gautland.
The Hrolfssaga Gautrekssonar is an Icelandic continuation
from the 14th century, so the Gautrek Saga must be older
than the 14th century, but I couldn't say how old. 

But in my opinion aettestupa has its origin in Gautrek's
saga and the word might have entered Icelandic from
the Vaestgoeta language.

Concerning Hrod = honour, glory, fame I think
the Swedish word 'aera' could mean different
things in English.

Think you are right concerning the connection of the
Eruli in Scandinavia to Skaldship.

Took a look at Ludwig Ruebekeil's  _Suebica - Voelker-
namen und Ethnos_ (1992). He wrote concerning the
Eruli (my translation into English): 

"The Erulic group in the south did not only keep a feeling
of origin but - and that is important - their ethnical connection
to the north. As the ethnic center no doubt can be found in
the north, there is a lack of a creation of a new kingdom as
there is no legitimate base, as long as a representative
of the ethnic origin does not give it legitimacy." (p. 117)

Ruebekeil also compares with the Vikings and the Varjagi.
In the case of the Vikings they were called Vikings without
necessarily identifying their exact origin. A Viking could
be Swedish, Danish or Norwegian. In the case of the Varjagi
or the Rus no exact identification of the homeland has been
made. According to Ruebekeil "die voelkerwanderungs-
zeitlichen Heruler sind die Vorlaeufer der Wikinger
in linearer Filiation". Thus Ruebekeil is identifying the Eruli
as a sociological term, not an ethnological one. On the other
hand he is above arguing for ethnicity. The Eruli only for
a short period in the southeastern home stepped out of their
sociorole and turned into an ethnos. This view has been expressed
also in Swedish literature recently, but I cannot agree with this. 
The Eruli were most likely a people or tribe originating
in Denmark, to which they could not return as they had been
expelled by the Danes. Thus returning to Scandinavia they choose
to settle near the Gautoi (the Goths who had remained in Gautland/
Goetaland).

Erulically

Bertil

I do not think I claimed so. I said that Icelanders seem to 
be using the same phrase/sayings as the Heruli MIGHT have.
But I would never claim that the words are exactly the same.That is 
written or pronounced in the same fashion.                            

So in your opinion. The origin of the word?

And how old is Gautrek´s Saga were this word is used.?

If this word seems to have been in use from the settlement of Iceland 
then I see no reason to not seeing it as a possibility that this word 
and the phrase ´ganga fyrir ætternisstapa´ could be much older.   

That is used in Scandinavia or even more south at the time, groups of 
Heruli moved to Scandinavia.
 And the place name ´stapi´ is from the settlement period in Iceland. 
And seems to have the same meaning  now as then.

It can well be that this Swedish word is constructed in the 
17th Century. This word has anyway nothing to do with 
´ætternisstapi´. At least not etymologically.
You say it your self that in Gautrek´s Saga the word there used is;  
´aetternisstapi´. That is the same word as the above mentioned 
Icelandic one. And carries exactly the same meaning.                 

 I see here in the I.E.W this word ´stupa´. It is the same word as in 
Swedish ´stupa´.That is the same word with similar meaning , we have 
in Icelandic.And it is a very old word in Icelandic. I see that the 
Swedish meaning is as you claim.    

The problem is that ´stapi´ and ´stupa´ are not etymologically 
connected. These are totally different words,with different meanings.
Maybe the Swedish word ´aettestupa´ is constructed on the older word 
´ætternisstapi´.  I do not know.
´stapi´in Swedish seems not to be known! apart from in some Swedish 
dialect as ´stäpu´ which means ´churchtower´.

No it does not mean honor.But it can mean; fame and glory. 
In Old English it meant honor(one of the meanings). It was written as 
´hreð´.                                                              

I think you are mixing together the Old High German word ´hrod,hruad´ 
that was used as a part in men´s names and the Old High German word 
´hruom´(´ruhm´ in New High German) which can mean ´honor´(but have 
other meanings too).                                              
They state it clearly that ´hrod,huad´ is related to ´hruom´ which 
means ´hrós,heiður,hróp´.Hrós means; praise,compliment. Heiður means; 
honor. Hróp means;loud call,yell,shouting.                       
These meanings are totally different from the meanings of ´hrod,hruad´
For translation of ´hrod,hruad´ (English). See my previous letter.

So you can not translate the ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ as meaning ´honor´. 
It is a wrong translation. You are mixing those two words(compared 
together above) with different meanings together. 

´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ means ´frægð,orðstír;kveðskapur,kvæði´. I 
translated that in my previous letter.                                
This ; in between orðstír and kveðskapur I do not know how to 
interprete. I think I will have to have a specialits opinion on this 
word. Can take some time.
Maybe it means that the fame,reputation of that person was somehow 
connected to Skaldship and poetry.! But I do not know. I will try to 
find out.

I think this is very interesting because here we see a connection 
between Heruli names and the art of Skaldship.                        
The meaning of the word beeing discussed is not debated. Otherwise 
they would state so.

Maybe this ´hróðr,hrod,hruod etc´ were used in names indicating that 
the person´s family/kin had knowledge and practiced the art of 
Skaldship. And this ´hróður´ was used too in womans names wich is 
supportive of Barði Guðmundsson´s conclusions.  
(In the book; Origin of the Icelanders)

At least the meaning of the word is; fame,glory,reputation and 
somehow connected to Skaldship and poetry.That is can mean Skaldship 
and poetry or indicates that the fame,reputation was connected to 
knowledge of the art of Skaldship or poetry.                      

The meaning is; frægð,orðstír; kveðskapur,kvæði. That is documented 
by the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook and stated without 
reservations as beeing so. They seem always to state if a meaning of 
a word is debated or the origin badly or not known.               
And that is not done here.

So here we have a good argument for that some of the Heruli families 
were/might have been connected to the art of Skaldship.           
And that is one of Barði Guðmundsson conclusions.           

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