[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

Dirk and Andreas!

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
>  
> > Where did Procopius claim the Heruls originally came from 
> > Thule/Scandinavia? As far as I know he only wrote their ancestral 
> > homes were beyond the Ister (Danube). If a Scandinavian origin 
was 
> > his point, why didn't he write it? 
> 
> 
> Hello Troels,
> 
> a Scandinavian origin was not Procopius' point at all. 

Dirk - Below I quote your claim - as far as I can see the above is 
the consequence, but I can be mistaken:

>>--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>> 
>>Similarly, Procopius'- most likely invented - story of a Herulic 
>>migration to Thule belongs to the same category, as A. Cameron 
>>(Procopius and the Sixth Century) shows. Britain, Thule and Scandza 
>>were the islands in the Northern Ocean were all northern barbarians 
>>came from according to the Roman mental map and where all 
barbarians 
>>should return to according to Procopius.

I am glad Andreas afterwards has argued in a much more certain way, 
but I think you are quoting Goffart correctly. Goffart described 
Procopios in this way in his chapter about Jordanes, but Andreas is 
right: We do not need to believe everything we read. 

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... further wrote:
In 1the 
> Greco-Roman mind-set Thule like Scandza were abstract concepts of 
> mysterious islands in the northern ocean with cave-dwelling 
canibals 
> and all, where all northern barbarians simply came from. We know 
that 
> Procopius knew next to nothing about the real geography of Europe 
and 
> therefore gave completely wrong geographical descriptions even of 
> territories as close by as the Balkan.

Procopios mentioned names of people the Heruls passed (and areas 
without people) - not geographical places except for Thule, which was 
the word for an island in the far north. He therefore knew they had 
to sail, but the rest of his description is a reconstruction based on 
earlier geographers. The natural way Procopius could get the 
information was from Heruls telling about the people they passed - 
the most easy facts to describe and remember. Most likely Procopius 
got his information in Byzans from the Herulian general Suartuas (the 
former Herulian king supported by Justinian) who was a fool, if he 
had not been well informed about the Herulian travelling between 
Sweden and Illyria in the 540'ies and their knowledge about where to 
find their kinsmen - but this is my guess as we do not know the 
source.

Troels
 
> 
> 
> 
> > Actually the Illyrian Heruls who 
> > didn't serve Justinian escaped to the Gepides in Dacia beyond the 
> > Ister just before Procopius finished his "Gothic Wars". Therefore 
> the 
> > claimed purpose was fulfilled without a lie about Thule.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Procopius was not interested in relating 'real' history in 
our 
> sense, but to argue a case in contemporary Roman-barbarian 
relations, 
> using 'history' as a medium of argumentation. Thus, he didn't lie 
> about the Heruls and Thule as it was common knowledge in the 
classical 
> world that northern barbarians came from Thule or Scandza. In fact, 
> Procopius was not even interested in Herul history as such. He was 
> just interested in using their example to argue his case.  This 
form 
> of argumentation through real and made-up history was a common 
> practice in his time. 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> > If the migration to Thule was a lie, why did he tell about a 
> Herulian 
> > king Datius returning from Thule to Illyria a few years before he 
> > wrote his book? Wasn't it a little risky? As far as I can see he 
> > would in this case loose all his credibility if someone knew the 
> > Herulian mercenaries - which most of the army did. 
> 
> 
> 
> You should remember that Procopius' relied often on second and 
> third-hand hear-say sources. Transparency was virtually nil and 
those 
> he wrote for were most likely not interested in the real origin and 
> whereabouts of some Heruls, but in his argument. Authors like 
> Procopius, Jordanes and Paulus also included stories of Amazons and 
> heros who single-handedly defeated armies and other fantastic 
stories. 
> All this was just meant to illustrate  their points and nobody in 
his 
> time would have doubted their credibility because of that.
> 
> 
>  
> > Some Scandinavian historians even regard a Herulian origin in 
> > Scandinavia as a misreading of Jordanes. I can't say if this 
> argument 
> > has any value.
> 
> 
> There is also a recent school of thought which is using Procopius' 
and 
> Jordanes to show that the Heruls (re)- migrated to Masovia in 
modern 
> northern Poland in order to account for the sudden emergence of the 
so 
> called Masovia-Germanic culture in the 6th century. 
> 
> See for example:
> 
> V. I. Kulakov, "Mogil'niki zapadnoi chasti Mazurskogo poozer'ia 
> konca  V-nachala VIII vv. " _Barbaricum_ 1 (1989),148-276; 
>  
>  -- "Gräber pruzzischer Stammesführer aus Warnikam," _Eurasia
>  Antiqua_ 3 (1990), 595-628].
> 
> cheers
> Dirk


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