[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
> Dirk and Andreas!
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
> >
> > > Where did Procopius claim the Heruls originally came from
> > > Thule/Scandinavia? As far as I know he only wrote their
ancestral
> > > homes were beyond the Ister (Danube). If a Scandinavian origin
> was
> > > his point, why didn't he write it?
> >
> >
> > Hello Troels,
> >
> > a Scandinavian origin was not Procopius' point at all.
>
> Dirk - Below I quote your claim - as far as I can see the above is
> the consequence, but I can be mistaken:
>
> >>--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> >>
> >>Similarly, Procopius'- most likely invented - story of a Herulic
> >>migration to Thule belongs to the same category, as A. Cameron
> >>(Procopius and the Sixth Century) shows. Britain, Thule and
Scandza
> >>were the islands in the Northern Ocean were all northern
barbarians
> >>came from according to the Roman mental map and where all
> barbarians
> >>should return to according to Procopius.
>
> I am glad Andreas afterwards has argued in a much more certain way,
> but I think you are quoting Goffart correctly. Goffart described
> Procopios in this way in his chapter about Jordanes, but Andreas is
> right: We do not need to believe everything we read.
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... further wrote:
> In 1the
> > Greco-Roman mind-set Thule like Scandza were abstract concepts of
> > mysterious islands in the northern ocean with cave-dwelling
> canibals
> > and all, where all northern barbarians simply came from. We know
> that
> > Procopius knew next to nothing about the real geography of Europe
> and
> > therefore gave completely wrong geographical descriptions even of
> > territories as close by as the Balkan.
>
> Procopios mentioned names of people the Heruls passed (and areas
> without people) - not geographical places except for Thule, which
was
> the word for an island in the far north. He therefore knew they had
> to sail, but the rest of his description is a reconstruction based
on
> earlier geographers. The natural way Procopius could get the
> information was from Heruls telling about the people they passed -
> the most easy facts to describe and remember. Most likely Procopius
> got his information in Byzans from the Herulian general Suartuas
(the
> former Herulian king supported by Justinian) who was a fool, if he
> had not been well informed about the Herulian travelling between
> Sweden and Illyria in the 540'ies and their knowledge about where
to
> find their kinsmen - but this is my guess as we do not know the
> source.
>
> Troels
>

Hello Troels,

your interpretation is certainly possible, but the reason why I said
that I don't believe that a Scandinavian origin was Procopius' point
is that I am not sure whether Thule can be readily identified with
Scandinavia. Some authors have tried to identify Thule with Iceland
or the Orkneys, but given Procopius' generally poor knowledge of
north European geography I regard it as possible that Thule was more
of an abstract concept in the mind of Romano-Greeks like Procopius.
The same seems to be true for Scandza. Thus, Fredegar placed a
'Scatanavia' between the Danube and the Ocean'some where in
continental Europe, the codis gothanis knows that 'Scatanauge'
(Scatanav ?) was situated near the Elbe river in proximity to
'paterspruna' (Paderborn in Germany), yet all these places are
readily read to mean modern Scandinavia.

I am sure you know far more than I about the Heruls, but some of the
reports about them simply do not square up. For example, the story
about their re-migration does not sound very probable to me. After
haveing spend centuries away from their supposed northern homeland,
they pack up their stuff and an entire people decides to move to
Thule, because they had still claims to their homeland after all
these centuries. Also, the tale about their gruesome customes seems
to more than anything, fit Procopius perposes. Goffart maybe wrong
with his interpretation, but by relating Procopius to the context of
contemporary Roman-barbarian relations he provides plausible and
logical explanations for Procopius' and especially Jordanes' reports.


cheers
Dirk






Dr. Dirk Faltin



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