[gothic-l] Re:Heruls

Thu Feb 8 14:31:19 UTC 2001

On 8 Feb 2001, at 0:23, trbrandt at post9.tele.dk wrote:

> Hello Andreas

> 
> Personally I have simply given up finding the origin of the Heruls.
> The primary sources I know are too few and uncertain.

Hello Troels

I quite agree with that. That is eyactly what I think of all the 
speculations about the origin of the Heruls.
> > For the Heruls I should like to draw your attention to
> > Alvar Ellegard, Who were the Heruli? In: Scandia 53 (1987) pp.5- 34,
> > who did quite a good analysis of the sources for them from the third
> > to the sixth century, though his conclusion that they developed in
> > Bavaria is a bit too sharply drawn.
> 
> This is something of an understatement. Here we do not agree.

We agree that it is an understatement. I do not share Ellegards 
opinion.  
> 
> I have spent a lot of time upon Ellegaard - according to Tore too much
> at my homepage (Chapter 14 and note 98-105) - and I have also read the
> articles from the symphosium in 1992, where Ingemar invited Ellegaard
> and Wolfram a.o.. I have used some of his carefull analyses of our
> sources, but I regard his conclusions as provokations - in several
> cases they do not follow his own sources at all. We need scholars like
> Ellegaard, Goffart and Lukman to criticise the sources and to show
> reverse angels, but often they are going too far being cought up by
> their own reverse scenarioes. 

Quite true, alas. 
> 
> > As far as I can see we have to distinguish between
> > 1) the rather shadowy Black Sea/Maeotis Eluri or Heruli of
> > the third and fourth century,
> 
> You have to separate this group in two. 
> 1a) A group ravaging in the Agean Sea in the 3th century according to
> Dexippos and his successors, and 1b) a group ruled by king Alaric and
> later subdued by Ermaneric in the 4th century. These groups have
> different sources and connections.

The Eluri are mentioned both by Dexippus frg.5  (for 1a) and 
Jordanes, Getica 117, who uses this name for 1b as an alternative 
to Heruli, but does not mention 1a, whereas Georgios Synkellos, 
Zosimus and the SHA call 1a Heruls. 1b is only attested by 
Jordanes and the connection between 1a and 1b is the name Eluri 
as an alternative to Heruli for both groups. It is probable that 1b are 
the descendants of 1a but by no means proven beyond doubt.

> 
> ad 1b) The position the Heruls got in Pannonia must be due to a role
> in the army of Attila. We know the Ostrogoths had an important role in
> the Hunnic army coming from East, and according to Jordanes they
> subdued Alaric just before the Hunns arrived. This is a probable
> explanation how they "got on the train". This is not a proof, but it
> makes much more sense to follow the connection between 1b and 2
> claimed by Jordanes than to reject his descriptions. This was also
> accepted by Wolfram in "History of the Goths". 

That is what I think, too.

> > The second and third group may be connected (there are some 
> > archeological signs of connections to the Black Sea region in the
> > Central European material)

Sorry, that should have been the first and the third group. I see no 
real connection between 2 and 1 and 3 except the name.

Kind regards
            Andreas
Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
Universität Wien
Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
A-1010 Wien
Österreich
Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
Fax 0043/142-77/92-72

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