[gothic-l] Re:Heruls

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

Hello Andreas

--- In gothic-l at y..., andreas.schwarcz at u... wrote:
>
> The Eluri are mentioned both by Dexippus frg.5  (for 1a) and
> Jordanes, Getica 117, who uses this name for 1b as an alternative
> to Heruli, but does not mention 1a, whereas Georgios Synkellos,
> Zosimus and the SHA call 1a Heruls. 1b is only attested by
> Jordanes and the connection between 1a and 1b is the name Eluri
> as an alternative to Heruli for both groups. It is probable that 1b
are
> the descendants of 1a but by no means proven beyond doubt.

As far as I can see only the Dexippos fragments called them Eluri as
Jordanes (referring to Ablabius) simply used the name in order to
point out a kind of mistake - probably the one made in Dexippos.
Jordanes called them Heruls and so did the sources describing 1a like
Dexippos. As their name later was spelled Heruler, Heruli, Eruli and
maybe Eril, ErilaR and Eorls the mistake Eluri made by one single
person seems possible. If you accept 1b as a possible solution as you
did below and in your letter to Dirk, you have no reason to reject 1a
as an earlier stage of 1b as both groups of Heruls came from the
shores of the Black Sea as Gothic companions. But of course we can't
be sure.

> > ad 1b) The position the Heruls got in Pannonia must be due to a
role
> > in the army of Attila. We know the Ostrogoths had an important
role in
> > the Hunnic army coming from East, and according to Jordanes they
> > subdued Alaric just before the Hunns arrived. This is a probable
> > explanation how they "got on the train". This is not a proof, but
it
> > makes much more sense to follow the connection between 1b and 2
> > claimed by Jordanes than to reject his descriptions. This was also
> > accepted by Wolfram in "History of the Goths".
>
> That is what I think, too.
>

I agree in the description you wrote to Dirk (3399). The eastern
group probably started from the Maeotis region, and in the historical
sources the routes of these Heruls ended in todays Serbia and in
todays Sweden somewhere around the "Gautoi". However a group also
ended at the Gepides in Dacia.

It is difficult to find connections to the Western Heruls. In general
the Heruls appear as a nomadic people and we know several splits of
the group. Therefore a separate group as the Western Heruls is more
likely the result of a split we have never heard about, than a
totally independent band or tribe using the same name.

If the Heruls originated from Scandinavia (including Denmark) or
Northern Germany the origin of the Western Heruls is obvious. If the
Eastern Heruls were a Gothic tribe - or something else - the Western
Heruls might as example origin from the band of warriors defeated at
Thessaloniki in 268 or a group fighting together with the Goths in
Dacia. One of the chieftains at Thessaloniki, Naulobates, became a
Roman "consular insignia" so some of them probably survived. A group
may have followed the Danube and the Rhine to the mouth where they
settled at the Frisian islands and marches - as they had settled in
the swamps near the mouth of river Don. Here they became pirates
(first mentioned in 286) and mercenaries together with their Batavian
neighbours. But this is guesswork.

There is no doubt that the mercenaries Procopius knew in the 6th
century were mostly from the eastern group of Heruls. However the
Herulian mercenaries mentioned in the 4th century by Ammianus
together with the Bataves as living beyond the Rhine and fighting in
England must have been these Western Heruls.

If Jordanes did not talk about the origin of the Heruls in his
introduction he talked about an expulsion in the 6th century. As
Procopius probably finished his work after Jordanes (Jordanes did not
mention the victory of Narses) and as Datius was only followed by a
brother and 200 young warriors upon request from their southern
kinsmen, they were most likely expelled by the Danes internally
in Scandinavia 512-546 before Datius left (his group was probably the
source of Jordanes in this case).


Friendly regards
Troels



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