[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I am trying
> > to gain some understanding of Visigothic attitudes to other ethnic
> > groups in the 7th century. Thus, as we know under King Sisebut
(610-32
> > or so) the Visigoths aquired sad notorieity for becoming one of
the
> > first European states to procecute the Jews on a large scale. I
> > suspect that the reason for this policy was a combination of
religious
> >  fervour and economic interest. Is there any suggestion for the
> > latter? Sisebut is interestingly the first Visigothic king to
issue
> > gold coins on exceptionally large scale. In fact, Tremisses of
Sisebut
> > and his successor Suinthila make up some 90% of all 7th century
> > Visigothic coins. If anybody has some insights I would be
interested
> > to discuss these issues.
>
> hello Dirk,
>
> It is not so complicated in broad I think. The problem is the
conversion
> to Catholicism by Reccared. After that the pope arranged to withdraw
the
> royal protection of the faith of non-christians because of the
Catholic
> persecution of Jews.


Hello Ingemar and Manuel,

thank you both for your replies. Ingemar, if I understand you
correctly, the persecution of the Jews by the Visigoths is the result
of the conversion from Arianism to Catholicism. But then, the Franks
were Catholic as well... although they may not have had significant
Jewish communities in their realm.






Before Arianism had been the uniting glue
keeping
> the Ethnicity intact. When catholics, every nobleman was closest to
> himself and allied with Roman and Celtic groups after the possible
> economic or other benefit.


On the other hand, the conversion to Catholicism allowed for a greater
degree of integration with the 'native' population a fact that has
often been stress as reason for the relative success of the Frankish
kingdom.



Several groups  also struggled for power.
> There were a number of Toledocouncils issuing more and more crazy
> decisions about Jews and in 702 they were made slaves without
> possibility to be freed, and the owner should control they did not
> practise their cult. Of course they joined the  Arabs 711 and helped
> them before that to victory. The Jews had carried the whole
Visigothic
> economy you could say and the catastroph 711  was directly related
to
> the conversion and persecution of the Jews.I must however stress
that
> this was royal and papal policy and several opposition-groups
struggled
> for a return to Arianism.


Yes and early attempt was made under Witteric, but in general, I
thought the conversion to Catholicism was the better strategy for the
reason mentioned above.




I think some of them joined the Cathars in
> Provence after the fall in 711.
>
> Kindly
> Ingemar



One thing that I cannot understand is: you said that Jewish merchants
carried the Visigothic economy (and I belief that this is true to a
large extent), why should the first severe percecution of the Jews
coincide with a significant monetarisation of the Visigothic economy.
As I said in my first posting, the coins of Sisebut and Suinthila
account for about 90% of Visigothic minting in the 7th century. Such
an increase in monetarisation should have coincided with flourishing
trade.

In other words, trade seemed to have increased at a time were the
conditions for the main trading group deteriorated. One possible
solution is of course that the sharp increase in mint output is not
related to trade at all, but to large scale military action, the
payment of mercenaries and the collection of taxes. After all under
Suinthila the remaining Byzantine strongholds in southern Spain were
driven out. On the other hand, this cannot really be the answer as
many towns in Visigothic Spain started to introduce a small
municipal copper coinage at the same  time. This coinage would not be
suitable for paying for armies, but served small trade.

cheers
Dirk


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