[gothic-l] Re: Beowolf--the Goth?

Mon Jan 29 03:24:57 UTC 2001

Tim!

You normally seem more sure than I am - but I don't see how we can be
sure of anything in Beowulf.

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tim O'Neill <scatha at b...> wrote:

......
> He's comparing Hygelac's hoard with the legendary
> story of the theft of Ermanaric's treasure by the
> adventurer Hama, and drawing on the associations and
> resonances that story has by evoking the tale and
> giving a exposition on its main points.

Yes this is one of the obvious possibilities - but I have always
wandered why Ermaneric should have any value as an example in England
and why he was a key figure in Widsith, if there was no connection
between a tribe Ermaneric met in his far off region and one of the
tribes invading England. Apart from his dubious role in Getica he was
not one of the great figures of the history according to the sources
around his own region. Therefore I have looked for another
explanation.

.......
> > The above mentioned necklace in
> > Beowulf was probably the "crown" of the people of Hugleik -
> > the unknown Geats.
>
> Sorry, I can't see your reasoning behind this.
  The poet
> tells us of a great treasure ......

Isn't it a little careless to bring the great treasure of your people
with you on a raid - if it is only a treasure? As you agreed in your
mail the necklace is often being a symbol of power. This is an
obvious explanation here.

.....
> In other words, you seem to be overinterpreting a literary
> device.  Beowulf is *literature* and should not be read
> too closely as *history*.

I agree. Probably I did not explain myself clearly.

.....
> I also don't understand what you mean by 'the unknown
> Geats'.  We don't know much about them, but they are
> referred to, with Hygelac, as a southern Scandinavian
> people in a number of sources other than Beowulf.

You repeat this three times in your mail. Which source except Beowulf
has described the "Geats" and referred them to Scandinavia? If you
believe they were Scandinavians because Chochillaicus was called a
Dane then the Geats were the Danes. This conclusion will give you
some troubles interpreting Beowulf. If you use names similar to
the "Geats" you can find a lot of them.

......
>
> > In a report from the camp of Attila all the followers of the Huns
> > were called Goths by Priscus,
>
> ???
> Priscus makes it clear that there were many Goths in
> Attila's camp, but that's not the same as saying all
> Attila's followers 'were called Goths'.

Sorry! Here I did not refer my source properly. According to Priscus
there was a Hunnic speaking and a Gothic speaking group (also having
different barbarian tongues). Several followers of the Huns were not
mentioned at all in that period, which in combination with Priscus
indicates they were regarded as one group - probably called Goths.
This may have caused the mistake.

 ......
> Which was a common confusion at the time. These Thracian
> Getae had nothing to do with the Goths, who in turn had
> little to do with the Scandinavian Geats, though the Goths
> and Geats may have once shared a common, cultic origin in
> Scandinavia many centuries before.

Exactly. That is my point.

 ....
> > The episode of Hugleik took place 50 years after the army of
Attila
> > was disbanded. At this time Gregory of Tours called the people of
> > Hugleik Dani and Liber Monstrorum called them Getorum.
>
> The episode recorded by Gregory of Tours and its
> parallels elsewhere, including in Beowulf, all make it
> clear that Hygelac was a *Scandinavian* king of a
> *Scandinavian* people.  Are you saying that they were
> refugees from Attila's kingdom and came from the
> steppes?
>
> In ships?  ;>

I did not say they came directly from Attila. Hugleik was killed at
least 60 years after the death of Attila. Actually I suggested
England as one of several possibilities.

>
> > Around 1000 AD Dudo wrote: "... the Getae, also known as Goths,
> > Sarmatians and Amacsobii, Tragoditae and Alans ...".
> > (http://orb.rhodes.edu/ORB_done/Dudo/chapter02.html ). These
people
> > seem to be followers of the Huns together with Rugians, Heruls and
> > Gepides. He also told about Danes being Dacians from Dacia, where
> > both Attila, the Goths and the Getes settled.
>
> Such folk etymological confusions are common in writers
> of this period, especially when writers tried to account
> for 'new' peoples (like the Danes) by having them
> descended from 'known' peoples (like the Dacians).  This
> was done because it was thought the ancient authorities
> on ethnography couldn't have simply been ignorant of these
> 'new' peoples, so they had to be simply offshoots of
> peoples 'known' through the ancient sources.  Unlikely
> etymological connections like 'Danes=Dacians' were thus
> invented.

I am sure this is a part of the explanation.

.....
> There's every indication that Hygelac, the Geats etc
> and the cycle of tales about their wars with the
> Swedes had been part of the nother western Germanic
> oral literature since the sixth century and had
> found its way to England with some of the earliest
> Germanic invaders.  Everything about these legends
> indicate that they have their origins in some obscure
> tribal wars in Scandinavia and I can't see any evidence
> in the poem or in the extensive scholarly literature
> on the subject of the Geat/Swede elements in the poem
> that it has anything to do with far off Gothic
> kingdoms rather than its clear Scandinavian setting.

Yes. As I wrote an English writer might have confused the Goetes (or
Guter) in Sweden with Hugleik the Geat (or Goth?) in Frisia. As you
said: Beowulf is 'literature'.

....
> > Just an idea!
>
> Interesting, but Beowulf scholars have been going over
> that poem and all of its analogue material for centuries
> now.  If there was any hint of what you're suggesting I'm
> sure someone would have noticed.

But I think most scholars agree that a satisfying answer has not been
found yet. I don't claim I have found it, but if all scholars argued
as in your last sentence, it is temptating to claim, that we do not
need scholars reading ancient history.

Troels

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