[gothic-l] Re: Surviving Ostrogoths?

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., tiefi at y... wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Some historians mention in footnotes, that the last Ostrogothic
> rebels moved north into the Alps.

Hi,

I think that this is possible in so far as these last rebels included
a good deal of Alamanns, including the remnants of Leuthari's and
Butilin's armies. Some authors have taken the increase of Ostrogothic
coin finds after 550AD as indication for such a movement. However, for
 an Ostrogothic landowner from Tuscany the incentive to leave was
apparently very small to non-existent if he was assured of his
possesions and rights.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, many Goths will only have become
Goths recently through their military service. If I understand
correctly, such a service allowed for social upward mobility for
members of the lower classes of the Romano-Italian indigenious
people.Thus, their may have been a big incentive for Italian peasants
to join the Gothic army and to become thereby Goths. After the end of
the Gothic kingdom, it was probably a natural thing for them to revert
back to whatever they have been before (Roman/Italian peasants) with
very little interest in moving norhtwards.




> There has been a quick Bajuvarian southward advance and around 650
> they'd already reached and settled the area of Salurno/Salurn.
>
> Could there be a connection?
> This region is easily defended, very fertile and can bear a big
> population easily.
> There are placenames thought to be Gothic in this area and around
the
> Garda lake.
>
> And some Bavarian dialect words may descend from Gothic, as
mentioned
> above by others.





Yes, see the relevant postings by Fransisc please.
A considerable number of Bavarian words have been identified as beeing
of East-Germanic origin.  There are however different explanations for
this. For example, the Bavarian people probably incorporated other
East Germanic splinter groups such as the Skiri (Herwig Wolfram says
that the Bavarian area of Scheyern (Skirun) is named after the Skiri
who settled there). Also, especially Rugians may have had a part in
the Bavarian ethnogenesis and we know of one Bavarian duke Fara, who
is known to have been a Herulian prince. Those people may have led to
the adoption of some East Germanic words into Bavarian without any
Ostrogoths fleeing to these areas.

cheers
Dirk











>
> Are there already linguistic studies on the "Cimbric" settlements in
> the Southern Alps regarding Gothic/Langobardic influence? (Sette
> Commune etc.) Or is their 13th century movement proven?
>
> Other "last ressorts" may have been the Valtellino/Veltlin or
> Carinthia/Kaernten but there is no evidence of any Germanic people,
> despite some Langobards in Valtellino, after 600
>
> ----
> excursio on "exotic" flight routes:
>
> one hasn't been mentioned, and I bet you haven't heard about it
> before:
> in a 19th century Enciclopedia, "Mayers Konversationslexikon" about
> 1870, the Guanches of the Canaries are mentioned as the last
> descendands of the Vandals, who fled the Justinian invasion.
> If this is theoretically possible, they knew about the "lucky
> islands" before, and if they knew, their neighbours, Visi- and
> Ostrogoths, might have known, too.
>
> Yours Survivingly Gothically


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