[gothic-l] Hildebrandslied: to Keths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hi Dirk!
> Thank you for refreshing my memory. I now recall reading
> something about it a while ago. Interestingly, the same
> story is also related as an Icelandic poem. I wonder how
> many centuries these two stories lived a separate existence.
> What I find curious, is that the names have been so well preserved,
> in that the names in the Icelandic poem are almost exactly the same
> as in the German poem. This might then indicate that names
> can be transmitted over very many generations without much
> distortion in oral tradition.


Hi Keths,

ok the names may have been transmitted correctly, but the important
thing is that the story is not historic. The Hildebrandslied is
believed to have been composed in a Langobardic/Bavarian
surrounding, because the language of the earliest version shows signs
of a Bavarian  model. Also, the name ending in -brand is frequently
attested among Langobardic and Bavarian dukes and kings.

The earliest version of the 8th/9th century already shows the signs of
a re-interpretation of Theoderic into the poor Dietrich figure of
later legends. Theoderic is not seen as successful and powerful king,
but as poor and unluky refugee. The earliest Hildebrandslied
unhistorically identifies Odoaker as the one who chased Theoderic and
is shieldbrearer Hildebrand away to the east. There is only one other
early legend that mentioned Odoaker, namely the Quedlinburger Annals,
which were written in the late 10th century. Here Odoaker assumed the
role of the advisor of Theoderic's evil uncle Ermenrich (Ermanerich).
The bottom line is that legends and sagas seem to have taken popular
figures of history and used them to compose entirely new stories
making the separation of real and imagined events an almost impossible
task in the absence of 'real' historic sources.

cheers,
Dirk



>
> They also had pictures. Or rather series of pictures,
> sometimes carved, other times painted. Sometimes on
> shields, other times on woven rugs, sometimes on doorposts
> or walls. Sometimes they also had poems that "explained"
> such pictures. I suppose such images might help to keep
> the poems from changing. They would, metaphorically
> "nail the poems to the wall".
>
> Have you heard the music composed by Ravel, called "Pictures
> at an exhibition"? In it he varies the musical theme, so
> that each theme describes a different picture at the
> exhibition. Maybe the old shield poems were a little bit
> like that.
>
> Chears,
> Keth
>
>
> >>
> >> I am not all that familiar with the Hildebrandslied.
> >> Was that the song about "Hadubrand u. Hildibrand"?
> >> Isn't that only a fragment? How do you know it is distorted?
> >>
> >
> >Hi Keths,
> >
> >yes, the Hildebrandlied is the oldest Germanic heroic poetry that
> >survived. It is only a fragment in that the end is missing in the
> >earliest manuscript. But it survived completely in other later
> >manuscripts that were written in the following centuries so that we
> >know the outcome (although some version report a completely
different
> >outcome!).
> >
> >It reports about a warrior who fought with Theoderic against
Odoacer.
> >Interestinly the Hildebrandlied tells that Odoacer was victorious
and
> >that Theoderic had to flee to the East and spend many (30?) years
> >there. The Hildebrandlied also brings in the Huns and reports that
> >Hildebrand had once received a golden bracelet from the king of the
> >Huns. If this was supposed to be Attila or one of his sons we have
> >another impossibility, because that would have made Hildebrand far
too
> >old.
> >
> >The Hildebrandlied starts with "Ik gihorta dat seggen ...", i.e. "I
> >heard them say...", which makes it clear that the story was passed
on
> >(and distorted) from mouht to mouth.
> >
> >The same is true for the Nibelungenlied. It also start by reporting
> >that "Uns ist in alten maeren wunders vil geseit ....", i.e. "
> >wonderous things have been told in old tales...".
> >
> >Especially the Nibelungenlied incorporates historical characters of
> > several centuries, e.g. Gunther/Gundahar (Burgundian king at Worms
in
> >the 5th century), Brunhilde (Visigothic/Frankish princess in the
6th
> >century), Gero (Saxon Markgraf in the 9th century or so), Eckehard
> >(Saxon Markgraf in the 10th century or so) and Siegfried is even
> >thought to incorporate some memory of Arminius of the 1st century
> >(although this is rather doubtful).
> >
> >
> >cheers,
> >
> >Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> >
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