[gothic-l] Re: Gothic

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Esteemed Bertil,
> I believe I could follow you half-way on this.
> you wrote:
> >Esteemed listmembers,
> 
> >It seems the contributor underneath wants to claim that research
> >on the Goths was only carried out in the 1940s. But
> >view the selected bibliography underneath. Research has been going 
on
> >also before WWII:
> 
> The way I understood the post, was that Winfred P. Lehmann, who
> used to work at the University of Texas at Austin (correct?)
> was born anno 1915. Therefore, in 1940, when he had just finished
> his university edication (in Germany I think), he wrote some
> papers about the Goths. Later, when he came to the United States
> and had become emiritus cum laude, he wrote a chapter on the
> Gothic language, where some of his 1940 findings became included.
> Prof. Lehmann is author of "A Gothic Etymological Dictionary".
> (of which I have a copy)
> 
> >Ambrosiani, S _Odinskultens haerkomst_, Stockholm
> >Arbman, H, _Zur Kenntnis der aeltesten Eisenzeit in Schweden_,
> >Copenhagen 1934.
> >Professor Sophus Bugge's works in Norway at the beginning
> >of last century.
> >Detlefsen, D., _Die Entdeckung des germanischen Nordens im
> >Altertum, Berlin 1904-09.
> >Eusebius/Loeb, _Ecclesiastical History_,1926
> >Feist, _Etymologisches Woerterbuch der gotischen Sprache_, Halle 
1923
> >von Friesen O., ´"Har det nordiska kungadoemet sakralt ursprung",
> >essay 1932, Uppsala
> >Hald, _Danske Stednavn_, Copenhagen, from 1922
> >Hoefler, O, _Kultische Geheimbuende der Germanen, Frankfurt/M, 1934
> >Isidor von Sevilla/Th Mommsen, 1894
> >Läffler, I F, "Om de östskandinaviska folknamnen hos Jordanes", 
Essay, 1894,
> >Stockholm
> >Hoops First Edition, 1915
> >Nerman, B., _Die Herkunft und die fruehesten Auswanderung der 
Germanen_,
> >Stockholm 1924
> >Schmidt, L., _Geschichte der germanischen Fruehzeit_, 1925/34
> >Svensson, J V, "De nordiska folkstammarna hos Jordanes_, Essay 
1917,'
> >Uppsala
> >Vasiliev, _The Goths in Crimea_, Cambridge, MA, 1936
> >Wessén, E., _De nordiska folkstammarna hos Beowulf_, Stockholm, 
1927
> >Wrede, F., _Ueber die sprache der Ostgoten in Italien_, Strassburg 
1891
> >
> >Not only is the claim that everything was done in the 1940s. Now 
also
> >Professor Omeljan Pritsak (1989) is outdated.
> >
> >The conclusion seems to be: All research on the Goths was made in 
the 1940s.
> >It is outdated but also all material until 1989 is outdated (unless 
only
> >Pritsak
> >is outdated, but other material is not ). Everything written from 
1900s to the
> >1930s cannot in my view be discarded. Also 19th century literature 
has a
> >value today.
> 
> Interesting question was raised on the research concerning the 
Goths.
> When did it begin?
> 
> Or let us phrase it differently: When did one begin to take an
> interest in Jordanes Getica? Was, for example, Adam of Bremen
> familiar with it? Or was Saxo grammaticus? Or was Snorri Sturluson?
> 
> Let us begin with the earliest (I know of), which is Paulus
> Diaconus.  So the question has been raised: "Did Paulus know
> about the Getica"? I consulted the index of the "Historia"
> but found only a reference to Cassiodorus, also known "Senator".
> The two books do however overlap to some extent, wherefore Paulus
> mentions Theudericus rex Gotorum,  Rodolfos rex Herolorum *)
> as well as Odoacar rex Turcillingorum. So we see then, that
> Paulus Diaconus, even if seeming to be unacquainted
> with Jordanes, he does mention the Gothi (sic) and can,
> thus, be put on the "read" list for things Gothic.
> 
> *)Incidentally, here is also resolved a question I asked
> more than a year ago, and that was about the spelling of
> the name "Herul" with Latin authors. As you see, Bertil,
> it is with an initial "H", and I guess that means that
> your way of spelling it as *Eruli, is out.
> 

Hi Keth,

I would be interested in this question of the 'appropriate' spelling 
of H(eruli). Since the eastern Heruls are involved in Gothic history, 
this should not be off topic. Personally, I have no view on this and I 
think I have seen both spellings beeing used by authorative scholars. 
However, somebody on this list once suggested that they should 
really be called Erils, which I could however not follow. One 
indication may be the placename Harlingen in Frisia, which is 
also attested as Herulingo and Herlingo and which is supposed to have 
been derived from the western Heruls.




> 
> P.S. I see that Paulus writes "Theudepertus" (example)
> which we now would simply identify as "Theudbert" or
> þjóðbjartr in Old Norse. To me this shows that in the
> Germanic languages that were spoken in Italy at that
> time, the "p" and the "b" were were interchangable when
> Germanic names or words were written down in Latin
> manuscripts. Jordanes writes Thiudebertus (§ 296)
> for the son of Lodoin.


Indeed, that is another question that interests me. The exchange of  
"b" for a "p" seems to be a characteristic of both Langobardic and  
Bavarian and is still clearly noticeable in modern Bavarian. I don't 
know much about this shift, but would be interested to learn more 
about it. My hypothesis is that the two languages were very similar in 
the 7th/8th centuries safe for some dialectal variation, which may be 
underscored by the fact that the Langobardic royal house was closely 
related and of the same origin as the Bavarian ducal house. In fact, 
the Langobardic royal house was called the Bavarian dynasty.

cheers,
Dirk








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