[gothic-l] Ethnicity and religion

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Hello Dirk,
you wrote:
> I thought that not even the meaning 'the outpoured' for Goths is
> secured.

Of course NOTHING is secured but it is the commonly most accepted
interpretation and the most likely as I see it.

 Could it not be that the Jutes, I think they are also called
> Eutes or similar, derived their name from the same god Gaut, which was
>  important for many Germanic people, which does not mean that they
> form a common ethnic group.


I use the word ethnicity in this case as a common glue for peoples
originating from the same god.This is what kept them together from the
beginning and what remains their contact even after all other
cooperation is abandoned. Observe that they never had a common land or
realm all Goths never went to Vistula and  then towards Rome. There
were, as I see it, just a number of peoples  with the same motivation of
power for their respective ruler claiming origin from Gaut - directly
for himself and generaly for the people.This is what made their survival
as single peoples possible even after  the Latin language and Roman
milieu had surrounded them. After conversion Arianism fulfilled the same
function, completing the heritage. Ethnicity does not nessecarily have
to be defined as biological, geographical or political! Besides these
"many" Germanic peoples all either claimed origin (Origo, Diaconus et
c.) from Scandinavia or have provenly lived in the vincinity. In this I
include present Northern Germany in connection to present Denmark and
maybe locally also along the South coast of the Baltic. Also the
Vistula-area of course since the Goths themselves (read
Jordanes/Cassiodorus/Ablabius)claimed Scandinavian origin in the first
hand.


> If I understand you correctly, then a common cult is enough to
> establish common ethnicity, which I am not at all convinced is
> justifiable.

As I state above - that is my opinion. You are allowed to think what you
like of that. Nota Bene the common religious ancestry and the cult
reminding the people of this origin is important for the  leaders to
control the people. That's why Athanaric was so rude against Christian
Goths. Both the civil cult and the chieftains warriorcult was important.
Athanaric cared of the peoples cult and the different reiks controlled
the warriors cult. After crossing the Limes Arianism was used to keep an
own ecclesiastical organisation and prevent internal Roman influence -
also to control the people.This cultic unity does however not mean
political unity among the Gothic folks. It is just a means for the local
leaders to control the people but all those leaders are, of course, also
eager to keep this position and  accordingly prevent changes in the
system. This is a common interest for all those leaders.


If people in Holstein were influenced from Jutland
> it is no great wonder because Holstein was later part of Denmark,
>
> ... and Bornholm was once governed by Germany. Note there has never
> been a Danish population in Holstein as there has never been a German
> population on Bornholm. These are political border-shifts of the
> middle ages, which have no bearing on ethnic affiliations in the Iron
> age.
>
>  and
> > still earlier also  part of  Anglo-Saxon culture, until late times.
>
> Well Schleswig-Holstein was according to Ptolemy the original
> settlement area of the Saxons and Saxon tribes including the Angels.

I do not know whether you are serious or just joking. I wrote it LATER
was part of Denmark and that earlier the Angles and Saxons lived in the
surroundings and in the North the Jutes. Bornholm shows, according to my
opinion of course, signs of both Goths and Burgundians - see my
Ring-name survey.


> > Lucky enough we also have some Cimbri later on that have Celtic
> > influences which might please you.
>
> I am not sure what you mean here. There are great difficulties with
> the mentioning of Cimbri on the Jutland peninsula. Ancient authors
> often saw a need to fill in gaps with what was perceived to be common
> knowledge. Pohl discusses this problem at length in 'Die Germanen'.

This was a joke alluding to your tendency of saying the Germans came
from the Celts.


> What was the exact name used in the time of Alfred the Great for
> Jutland? BTW, do you know when the name Gotland is first attested in
> ancient sources?

In Alfreds edition of Orosius treating Otheres journey Jutland is called
Gotland. About the island of Gotland this form is Middle Age - it was
earlier called Gutland - but I dare not say an exact date.

Kindly your friendly combattant

Ingemar

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