[gothic-l] Old Gutnish/closeness of languages

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hails Bertil!
How "close" two things are is often a matter of practical
importance. For example two ships. The distance between them
often tells us something about the danger of collision,
and hence what speeds are safe to sail with. For example in
the English channel all ships must go at reduced speed, due
to the danger of collision there.

Very often, when we speak about "closeness" there also exists
a concept of distance. The distance then tells us about how
close two things are to each other.

What is the "distance" between two languages?
How do you measure it? Do you measure it in years,
or do you measure it in percentages? Certainly "miles"
are irrelevant for languages.

The distance between two ships can be defined as the distance
between their centers, suitably defined. But what is the
"center" of a language? Is it a "body", is it a "corpus"?

Mathematicians have looked at such problems for years.
They speak about "topological spaces". Sometimes there is a
concept of distance, sometimes there isn't. Metric spaces
are nice, because in them a concept of distance is defined.
But many spaces are also "non-metric" and in them a distance
function is not defined.

This was just some philosophy, before we begin to discuss
a problem where it may be difficult to say what is "the
right answer" (=fazit!).


>These words are of course only a beginning.
>We seem to seek different solutions. To seek
>the etymology of Old Gutnish words is one way,
>make the type of comparison you have
>made is another. I believe in the end the first
>will be the securer road to a scientific answer of
>the question.

If there existed an etymological dictionary for
old Gutnish, it would certainly help! Do you know
if there is one? Even a word list would help.
(which can be compiled from the texts that exist)


But you have to remember that a language is not
merely its vocabulary. Language means communication by
means of speech. And any element of a language that
carries information, is as important as all the other
information carrying elements. Thus, you are looking at
too small a subset of all the information-carrying elements
if you only look at the stems of the words.
English for example has very many imported words.
(50%?) But since the grammar is more similar to Anglo-Saxon
than to French grammar, that counts for something too.

I saw that the Dutch linguist R.C.Boer published something
he called "Oergermaans handboek". In it he looks at all
Germanic languages, and tries to go as far back as he can.
He has a lot about phonology. But also a lot about grammar.
In a particular spot he looks as the flexion of nouns,
and is thus able to set up 4 or 5 "stages" of development
from "Oergermaans". He is then saying that the West Germanic
languages left the others during the second stage,
whereas East and North Germanic stayed together somewhat longer,
and split up only at the 3rd or 4th stage.

Boer is in other words using a "tree-model" for his analysis
of how close the languages are. In a tree-model it is important
what "branch" you are on. And the points where new branches
come into existence are the essential points. In such
a model "distance" would be defined by how many branches
you are removed from each other. Perhaps this can be called
the genetic approach, since in genetics similar considerations
are important.

These just some thoughts about how to define the problem.

Best regards
Keth


>Your explanation underneath is interesting and
>worth a closer scrutiny. Some linguists have
>put Gothic in the North Germanic branch.
>If the migrants, as you suggest, spoke Gothic,
>is of course a possibility as a migration
>of Goths is envisioned from Gutland.
>
>A gradual influence from Swedish and Danish
>took place but one must remember that Gutland until 1361
>was a well organised autonomous republic even
>though a treaty with Sweden existed. In 1361 Gutland
>was invaded by Danish King Valdemar Atterdag, who
>put an end to Guthnic independence but it was
>not until the 16th century that Gutland became
>a Danish province. More knowledge than mine
>is necessary to follow the gradual influence of Danish
>and then Swedish. But the basic fact is that the Gutnish
>language is but a small remnant. Swedish dominates
>all public affairs on Gutland.
>
>Thank you for your further interest and hopefully
>a preliminary comparative analysis could be published
>relatively soon while the complete work will probably
>have to wait for years to come to be published.
>
>Will return with more examples of possible Old Gutnish-Gothic
>word relations.
>
>Gothically
>
>Bertil
>
>Yes, professional and objective. I will try to analyze those examples
>this weekend. But I think that a few isolated words that sound like
>Gothic can not change the overall character of Gutnish that, for me,
>is clearly Scandinavic. I found also an explanation for this:
>In Gotland was initially spoken Gothic. A part (pprobably the grater
>part) of the Goths og Gotland crossed the Baltic sea and migrated
>south- and westwards, becoming the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Gepids,
>Gothi Minores, Crimean Goths, etc.
>Those who chosed to remain in their homeland, Gotland, were gradually
>"scandinavized" linguistically, maybe by arrival of settlers from the
>Swedish mainland, maybe through political dominance of Sweden, or
>because of both reasons, so that the attested Old Gutnish language was
>already an East Scandinavic language with some Gothic residues, but
>the inhabitants preserved their old name (Guta "Goth", Gutland "land
>of Goths").
>
>Thank you very much for appreciation. Since I'm only an amateur, I can
>not judge how competent I am, and the appreciation of you and others
>really encourage me.
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>I can read and speak English, French and German without any problem.
>I understand also a little Spanish, Hungarian, and Russian (and also
>can read in these languages with the help of an dictionary).
>
>
>
>
>You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email
>to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/