[gothic-l] Re: Goetar, Gautoi, Gutar, Goths and Gaut
malmqvist52 at YAHOO.SE
malmqvist52 at YAHOO.SE
Sun Jul 15 22:56:34 UTC 2001
Hi Bertil,
--- In gothic-l at y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Esteemed listmembers,
>
> Classical authors attest the Goths at the time of the Birth
> of Christ lived south of the Baltic Sea.
At precicely the time of Birth of Christ? Could please give me some
referenses on the authors and the exact locations and times?
If the migration of the goths from Gotland wich You, Tore, I,
Ingemar, and maybe others on the list does seem to agree upon in fact
MIGHT have happened, occured several hundred years BCE then please
forgive my mistake, but it doesn't shake my point. It corroborates
it.
the three peoples
> Goetar, Goths and Gutar have, as long as we have
> been able to follow them, lived around and south of
> the Baltic Sea before the Goths started migrating
> toward the Black Sea.
I really don't follow you here. Do you mean Götar (Gautar:-)) I
thought these were the Vikings in Götaland, until the end of the
eleventh century probably ruled by the Danes.
Gutar I assume is the people living on Gotland(formerly Gutland),
wich today have absolutely nothing more in common culturally with the
goths than other germanic-speakers( as the really good evidence on
this list suggest). How it was several hundred years before christ, I
can only guess upon. But don't do it, because I find no answers in
the sources and the reseach community on this.
The Baltic Sea has no doubt
> played an important, uniting part.
For all the different people who lived there.- yeah perhaps. But I
really don't think that anyone who touched the Baltic sea instantly
became a goth and then would remember it generation after generation.
And why not state the same things about the Black Sea, Öresund,
Kattegatt, Skagerak, The Englich Channel, The Mediterranean etc?
> There is according to Professor Thorsten Andersson
> (see both his article Goetar, goter, gutar in Namn och
> bygd (1996) and his later artiche in Hoops 2nd ed. unity
> among researchers that these names are related
> to the verb gjuta, Old Swedish giuta.The three people
> names would the, according to the international
> discussion, be nomina agentis and originally related
> to man, men.
Thanks for the referense. Right now I'm in Riksgränsen but as soon as
I come to Gautburg I will look it up in the library.
But, I'm critical to all things I read. It doesnt have to be true
that the words Gaut goths and gutes are related and have something to
do with gjuta and men just because a professor writes it.
I really want to understand it myself and I dont want to "be told"
how to believe.
> Gapt/Gaut lead the Amal Ostrogoths. Amal does not
> appear until after three generations. Ther cannot be
> much doubt that Gaut is the progenitor of the Goths.
There has been many posts on this the last week, forgive me for not
being able to follow them all. Anyway I have been able to have a look
on some of them and I found in e. g. these:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4283
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4372
that the ancestor of the amals is Gapt and not Gaut.
Your "Gapt/Gaut" rendering does seem to be totally incorrect and thus
desinformative for me.
I also really don't believe that Gaut could be = Gapt. To me they
seemk quite unlike.
> The name of the progenitor (Proto-Germanic *Gautaz) seems
> therefore to be identical with the people name goetar in
> singular. It is a heros eponymos, Gaut= goeten (singular
> in Swedish).
I'm VERY sceptcal to all ethymologies derived from words from proto-
languages. May it be proto-indoeuropean or proto-germanic. I really
don't like it, simply because they never existed, not in any way we
could figure out at least.
> Think it would be valuable if Anders explained the "hunch"
> a little more as it goes against all established research.
What research?
Don't you think that I have people agreeing with me on any, some,
most or all of my points? I know several very serous scholars that
does to name a few: Jörgen Chr Bang in Odense wrote on the genaology
of the elder runes, and traced it directly from semitic scripts,
without the way of the greek and the roman ones. Write to him and you
will get his excellent papers. The scholar in semitic languages Kjell
Aartun also thinks the norweigan elder uthark- inscriptions are
written in some semitic-related language
I could continue to quote the father of modern hebrew lexicology
Wilhelm Gesenius in his II-article on the hebrew word Yod-Vet-Lamed,
yaval :
-----------
jubeln, jubilare shallnachnamendes stw., wie die vervandten 'jolen
(schwed., wovon das Jul-Fest der Scandinaver), holl. joelen,
entfernter ululare, eiulare, und in den semitichen sprachen (with
hebr and arab. scripts)"yalal, YLYL(arab), 'alal, desgl yavav(aus
beyden javal) Davon yovel.
-----------------
This last word yovel means jubilee or ram(s horn)
I find this particularly interesting since in very old scandinavian
yule traditions the ram (Julbocken) (someone with a ram's mask) plays
the big role instead of Father Christmas.
I also remember that even Dirk answered me in germanic-l, that he
didn't consider my theories all far-fetched, and totally impossible.
I don't remember his exact words. But in any case it WASN'T
like "throwing in a burning torch" as I thought it could possibly
have been.
>
> Gothically
>
> Bertil
Best Wishes
Anders
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