[gothic-l] Re: Illerup objects with runes.

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>
> > ..........
> > Can I ask who these people of Odin where? The name Odin is just a
> > derivation from Wodan as I understand. Is there also an indication
> > that Wodan came from the south?
> >
> > .......
> > I think this god Njord is sometimes also identified with the
> Germanic god Nerthus. .......
> >
> > A depiction of a Celtic god in the Celtic princely grave of
> Glauberg
> > (500BC) shows a one-eyed god with two ravens. An early depiction
of
> > Wodan/Odin? or simply a sign that certain images travelled between
> > cultures and the characteristics of a god of one culture were used
> to  embellished the god of another culture?
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > Dirk
>
> Hi Dirk
>
> I am glad to see you have got the same general impression as I have.
> Several images and names of gods were spread all over Europe being
> picked up by different people and cultures in different shapes.
>
> I further believe, that one group were agriculturists dependent of
> the weather worshipping primarily the sun and fertility - often with
> the dark side of the nature as a twin. The other - and maybe younger
-
>  group were nomads (often cattleholders), warriors and maybe
> tradesmen dependent of success in war, strong leadership and short
> term values worshipping primarily an ancestor in shape of a creator
> or warriorgod in order to strengthen the power of the kingship and
> willingness to die in battle. The majority were probably
combinations
> of these two types.


Hi Troels,

total agreement here! I think one cult or religion has hardly ever
comletely wiped out the predessor. This is even true for Christianity,
which by surplanting Roman and other pagan cults has incorporated many
of the characteristics of its predesessors. Also for the Goths,
Wolfram identifies a so called Celtic Hirsana-layer in the Amal
mythology which testifies to the acculturation of the continental
Goths to the Celts.





> Some of the elements were quite ordinary and could easily be
> developed as independent parallels, some elements were borroughed as
> the one eyed figure with two ravens you are dating to a time where
> Wothan should not exist, and some elements were simply a part of
> their ancestral history - especially in the second group (nomads and
> migration people).

I would like to emphasise that this Celtic depiction is of course not
Wodan as such. It shows some superficial similarities which may be
derived from it, but which may also be entirely coincidental. However,
I find it noteworthy that ancient people like  Romans and the Goths
seemed to have been easily able to identify their own gods in the
traits of the gods of the others. Thus, Wodan I think was identified
with Mercury, while Tiu may have been Mars etc. All this demonstrates
the inclusive character of these pagan religion and from my point of
view makes the identity: 'common cult equals same ethnic origin' very
difficult to uphold.

cheers,
Dirk






> Maybe Dumizel is right, but sometimes I think he is trying to find
> systematical IE-connections in every natural development.
>
> I know you asked Anders - but if we agree so far in principle, I
will
> describe my version of Odin/Njord when I get time later using the
> above "structure" - without leaving the topic of this list.
>
> Troels


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