[gothic-l] Re: Odin / Religions

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

Hi Dirk

I will try to concentrate questions and answers below - except for a 
answer about Heruls in seperate posting:

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > The archaeologi indicates, that Wothan penetrated slowly from 
south 
> > in the 5th century (bracteats etc.). 
> 
> how do bracteats etc. show that this Wodan cult came slowly from 
the 
> south? or do you mean from southern Scandinavia to northern 
> Scandinavia? I recall that some authors have argued that the 
> development of a warrior Wodan/Odin cult resulted from an 
increasing 
> militarisation of Germanic society in the cenutries AD.
> 

Signs like bracteats with Wothan-like symbols* were first found in 
Denmark and coastal areas in Southern Sweden and Southern Norway, 
later they were spread out. You are right that this is often 
explained with a new military aristocracy (a.o. Hedeager about 
Jutland), which I believe is correct in local areas of this region.

* I am referring the archaeologists, as I have my problems with 
always to identify a man with a horse or a lance with Odin. In my 
opinion this could be Odin, a southern Wodan, a chieftain or a man 
with a horse or a lance.

> 
> I thought that the term Ases/Anses is derived from the word for 
wooden 
> beam and simply referes to wooden idols that Germanic people 
> worshipped. Is  it possible that a re-interpretation of Ases with 
Asia 
> was only made much later when the original meaning was long lost.
> 

Many attempts of interpretations of the name have been presented - 
also a version connected to "anses" in the meaning ancestors, and the 
connection to Asi (a.e. Heyerdahl) and Ossi. Asians might be a re-
interpretation, but even then you have to explain from where the 
Tanais-story came (Tanaquisl=River Don). Snorri rejected in one of 
his attempts the Troja-legend used by most Germanic tribes from 700AD 
and found an original story, which could not be inspired from the 
name Asir as the only source. The story is in my opinion more 
important than the name.   

> 
> I thought that Plinius (or another ancient author) said that the 
> tribes of Scandinavia belonged to the Hilleviones as opposed to the 
> Ingviones  (North Sea tribes) Istviones and Irminones in the 
Germania magna.


There is a very good reason why Plinius did not describe the cult in 
Svealand in the middle of the first millenium: He was dead 500 years 
earlier - and his collegues had past too. The names Yngve/Ynglinger 
in Ynglingatal/-saga are normally supposed to derive from Ing, and 
the name Svear indicates a fertility/sun cult - but the names are not 
important in this connection. 


> > If the leader of the Ases did not play such a role already at his 
> > arrival, he got after his death a Wothan-like shape, and his name 
> > became the Scandinavian version, Odin (According to Wolfram the 
name 
> > does not occur before the 6th century). Probably they already 
> > worshipped Wothan or Gaut, and took advantage of both gods being 
> > known in some areas of Scandinavia already. 
> 
> 
> Maybe I mis-understood you, but are you saying that Odin and Wodan 
are 
> different gods? I thought Odin is a name that is derived from Wodan 
or 
> the Scandinavian version of the name Wodan.
 

Initially we agreed about the assumption that "several images and 
names of gods were spread all over Europe being picked up by 
different people and cultures in different shapes". Wodan in one 
people is not necessarily the same god in another people or another 
time, but they had probably many elements in common. I see Odin as a 
Scandinavian version of Wodan - deliberately similar, but not 
identical.


> "The rendering of dies Mercurii by Wôdenesdæg, which we
encounter 
from 
> the third century onward, makes it certain that the Mercurius found 
in 
> Tacitus and other Latin authors is to be dentified with Wodan."
 

I think this problem is often misinterpreted. The Latin authors often 
found one of their own gods most similar to the Germanic god they 
wanted to describe, and used the name of their own god. This does not 
mean that Mercurius and Wodan are identical, and therefore we often 
misunderstand the connections between the Germanic gods as most of 
our sources are Roman and Greek. The translation of Roman calenders 
is just a part of this problematic. 

 
> "The express testimony of Tacitus, Paulus Diaconus, and others, as 
> well as Odhin's place at the head of the Norse pantheon, were 
formerly 
> regarded as sufficient to establish the position of Wodan as the 
chief 
> god of all Teutons. This opinion has now gradually been abandoned 
by 
> the majority of scholars. Müllenhoff, Weinhold, Mogk, and many 
others 
> hold that Wodan was  originally a god of the Istvæones, and that 
his 
> worship was disseminated by the Rhine-Franconians, supplanting that 
of 
> the old sky god Tiu."
> 

If this is your opinion too, we agree - except for his origin, which 
I have no knowledge about.

Regards
Troels



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