[gothic-l] Re: Gaut, Gapt

[Le Bateman]

Please show me the original Latin sources which mention Oduin, I think this
is the author's own conjectures. Tacitus refers to Mercurius and Mars. Even
Jordanes uses the Latin names, Gregory of Tours, wrote about the Franks, not
the Goths, even he used the Roman names for the native gods. Merurius, and
Mars especially.
Le

----- Original Message -----
From: <malmqvist52 at yahoo.se>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 5:11 PM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gaut, Gapt


--- In gothic-l at y..., andreas.schwarcz at u... wrote:
> On 17 Jul 2001, at 22:33, keth at o... wrote:
>
>
> >
> > >monophthongisiert worden;
> > Here Reichert (=R.) mentions a phenomenon
called "monophtongization".
> > I suppose this means that a diphtong (au, ei, oi etc..) becomes
> > changed into a monophtong (= a single vowel). The relevant
example in
> > the case under discussion would be, if I have understood this
> > correctly, the change au -> o, that took place in the development
of
> > Gothic. In our case this would then be further exemplified
by "Gautoi"
> > becoming "Gotones". I am writing it up explicitly, so that I may
be
> > corrected, if I have misunderstood. And corrections by those who
know,
> > are appreciated!
> >
> Dear Keth,
>
> to be exact, Gauthoi, would become Gothi, not Gotones, because
> -ones is a weak ending.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is an important point, that is also exemplified in Old
Norse, as
> > I pointed out earlier. Viz. in ON manuscripts you frequently see a
> > vacillation between two different ways of writing "after", namely
as
> > both "eptir" and "eftir". This is then taken as indication that
in Old
> > Norse, the "f" was not labio-dental as it is in Scandinavian
languages
> > today, but rather bi-labial. (please try to say an "f" without
using
> > the teeth) A bi-dental "f" will then mean that spellings will
tend to
> > vacillate. For example Gapt/Gaft.
> >
> > >(Aptacharius für Authari bei Gregor von tours, vgl.8, XXVI und
107).
> > (In Gregor of Tour's writings we find the PN Authari written as
> > Aptacharius.)
> > This is an important example of the practice.
> > It surprises me that such an important example
> > was not mentioned earlier. This is probably the
> > Langobard king Authari who ruled from 584-590.
> > Gregor of Tours (538-594) was his contemporary.
> > Paulus Diaconus (725-795) writes the name as
> > "Authari".
>
> This is Authari.
> >
> >
> >
> > Two important elements in the proposed explanation model.
> >
>
> >
> > >(z.b. Bauto : Oduin);
> > Another example of how Latin sources spelled Gothic names that
> > contained au [in Gothic].
> >
> Not quite, it is rather an example how names which in Frankish or
> Longobardic containes an au changed to o in Gothic.
>
> > >für eine eindeutige Klärung der ursachen ist das Material zu
gering
> > (for a unique clarification of the causes, the available material
is
> > too little.)
> >
> > >Daß, falls sowohl Gapt als auch Gauthigoth auf Cassiodor
zurückgehen,
> > (that, in case both Gapt and Gauthigoth go back to Cassiodor,
> > the latter followed differing spelling traditions, may be for
> > different reasons, that do not necessarily have anything to do
with
> > the pronounciation.)
> >
> > Here is also an important point, and it is indeed very
instructive to
> > put the two names Gapt and Gautigoth (both from the Getica) next
to
> > each other for the purpose of comparison. For, if - as hypothesis
> > seeks to establish - Gapt is indeed only a specific chancellary
style
> > of spelling Gaut, then uniformity in the use of spelling rules,
seems
> > to require that the Getica (or Cassiodor's lost Historia upon
which
> > the Getica is based) contain no Gothic names or words that
contain the
> > cluster -aut-. But since the name Gautigoth obviously does not
conform
> > to such a hypthesis of uniformity in the applied spelling rules,
one
> > is left rather baffeled. R. comments that such variable spelling
rules
> > may have different causes, and that such causes are not
necessarily
> > related to pronounciation.
> >
>
> >
> > I am not familiar with the "Variae". But it sounds like it might
be
> > interesting to take a look at them. In the above Latin quote that
you
> > were kind enough to point to, is also exemplified why I think
access
> > to the Latin source is so important. In fact, when I read
Nordin's no
> > doubt correct transalation, he uses the word sägner (legends),
whereas
> > the Latin text has "fabulis".
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Keth
> >
> I quite agree with the necessity to read them in Latin.
>
> > PS My comment: What I missed was, if possible, a pointer towards
> > the rarity of the cluster -apt- in Germanic PN's. For if this
> > is a cluster that _only_ occurs in Gapt, the it is very
> > reasonable to see it as something accidental. If it only occurs
> > in Latin renderings of Germanic PN's, but is extremely rare
> > in Germanic phonology, then it appears reasonable to eliminate
> > all such clusters from Germanic PN's in Latin manuscripts where
it is
> > relevant. During our discussion I did however point to such words
as
> > ON "raft" (with bi-dental f), and wondered if the Vandal
name "Raptus"
> > may not be etymologized in terms of such wooden structures as
> > indicated in ON "raft". (the example was supplied by Dirk)
> >
> >
> To complicate things further, we must also take into account that
> late antique and early medieval scibes did not distinguish between
> u and v and used both letters either as vowels or as consonants.
> Thus Rausus could have been spoken Rafsus and Raptus been
> spoken Raftus or Rautus. And Gaut and Gapt could both have
> been spoken Gaut and Gaft.
>
I really can't follow the logic here. Why would you write Raptus when
it should be pronounced Rautus? Are these aknowleged latin spelling
rules? I know that the sound changes v>f (i think i recall the term
assimilation from the linguistics course as in ru. avtomat- here
becaus the v is next to a t), p>f , b>v and v>w, Theese changes of
course ocurrs as time passes. Thus I have never seen a case in wich p
instantly is turned into an u.


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