[gothic-l] Re: Illerup objects with runes. to Tore

[Tore Gannholm]

>--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
>> Hello Dirk,
>> I don't know what evidence Wolfram has for 1490 BC. Jordanes does
>not
>> mention any year.
>
>
>
>Hello Tore,
>
>Jordanes does mention a year. From Andreas' message 4588:
>
>"Jordanes, Getica, 25 and 94 f. and his own introduction to "Typen der
>Ethnogenese"(vol.1, Wien 1990, p.26) as further literature. There he
>also cites Jordanes, Getica, 313, and  here you will find that
>Jordanes gives the duration of the Gothic kingship with 2030 years,
>ending in 540 AD with the capitulation of Witigis:
>
>Et sic famosum regnum fortissimamque gentem diu regnantem tandem pene
>duomillesimo et tricesimo anno victor gentium diversarum Iustinianus
>imperator per fidelissimum consulem vicit Belesarium, et perductum
>Vitiges Constantinopolim patricii honore donavit."
>
>
>
>> From an archaeological point of view there is an emigration from
>Gotland
>> 4th and 3rd century BC. At the same time there are gravefields in
>the
>> Vistula area beginning at that time presumably Gothic.
>
>
>If there was such a migration, which according to the archaeological
>literature that I am familiar with is not the case, than it cannot be
>linked to any timeframe given by Jordanes as he placed the
>migration into the distant legendary past of 1490BC (which obviously
>is pure fantasy).
>
>Overall, we have been over that a hundred times and are not likely to
>reach common ground.
>
>cheers,
>Dirk

I don't know which archaeological litterature you are familiar with.
However here comes an article I wrote three years ago. Some of it has been
dealt with on this list already. However I thought it could be worth while
to see the various Swedish standpoints.

"The origin of the Goths

Individuals and whole groups of people have moved to new settlements far
away from the soil of their ancestors. They stayed there and formed new
societies or were assimilated into already existing cultures.
Archaeologists and historians have tried to find the origin of these
peoples. Archaeological findings and writings have been helpful but the
interpretations are difficult. The academical world therefore comes to
different results. This stands also for the origin of the Goths. Most
researchers on the European continent are in agreement. In Sweden for some
reason, the leading researchers have not accepted these European results.
If this is due to the fact that the Swedes want to protect their own
analyses is not known. However, the standpoint is astonishing. It doesn't
help that other Swedish scholars have tried to modify the Swedish
nationalistic fixation.
Let me try to explain.
Already 1923 professor Birger Nerman wrote in Fornvännen an analyses over
"The oldest home of the Goths". He referred to several scholars; Gustav
Kossina, Sophus Bugge, E. Blume, whom all placed the origin of the Goths on
the island of Gotland. Kossina  is the first scholar who with
archaeological means have tried to throw some light over this problem.
According to Nerman, professor Oscar Almgren was the main opponent to this
opinion. He had got stuck with the opinion that the exodus of the Goths
took place about the time of the birth of Christ. The archaeological
findings, according to Almgren, contradicts this opinion that the Goths
should have emigrated from Gotland. He says that had the exodus instead
taken place 200-300 years B.C. the matter had come in a completely
different light. Almgren maintained that the Gotlandic material indicated
an emigration about 300-150 B.C. Accordingly it can't be the Goths , as
Almgren maintains that they emigrated about the birth of Christ. However,
Almgren said that individual Gutar (people from Gotland) at that point in
time might have emigrated to the river-mouth of the Vistula. Almgren
indicates a female grave at Neustädterfeld near Elbing. At the head of the
skeleton a set of  spangles to a headdress characteristic for Gotland was
found . The thesis maintained by Almgren has recently been refuted in a new
book: "Kokowski Leiber, Schätze der Ostgoten" (ISBN 3-8062-1171-X), Konrad
Theiss Verlag GmbH & Co. Stuttgart, 1995. Polish archaeologists, mainly
Wolagiewicz, have carefully studied the Gothic graveyards in the Vistula
area and found that the oldest graves date to the second century B.C. That
is at the time that Almgren could accept that there had been a mayor exodus
from Gotland. Almgren has no stand any longer to contradict that the Goths
come from Gotland. In the abovementioned book there is a table showing
eleven Gothic gravefields in Northern Poland documented to the second
century B.C. The Roman geographer Strabons writes that the Goths belonged
to that association of Germanic states which were under the supremacy of
the Marcomanner chief Marbod. In the "Annals" of Tacitus one can read that
the Marcomanner noble Catualda year 19 A.D. before he overthrew Marbod in
Bohemia lived as a refugee with the Goths. Already at that time the Goths
had an important position which shows that they can't be a newly arrived
tribe at that time. Nerman couldn't find any common obstacle to prove that
the original home of the Goths, the island Skandia, could very well be
Gotland. However, his argument why it still not could be Gotland  was a
line in Jordanes. There it says that the Goths had emigrated under a king.
Nerman says: "Kings never existed on Gotland." Therefore, Nerman laid down,
Gotland can't be the original home of the Goths. New research has, however,
overturned the arguments of Nerman. Peter Heather says in his book "Goths
and Romans 332-489", (1991 ISBN 0-19-820234-2), that the Goths were ruled
by "judges", the same as the highest power on Gotland was "landsdomaren",
the chief judge. Heather interpretes the position of the Gothic judges in
more or less the same way as we consider the Gotlandic judges. The
statement from Jordanes that the Goths had emigrated under a king is by
todays scholars considered with scepticism. Cassiodorus, who was the origin
to large parts of the book by Jordanes, was private secretary to Theoderic
the Great. It was important for Theoderic, as it is for all new dynasties,
to show that they had old ancestors. Of that reason it was common to create
a genealogical table. The family of Theoderic, the Amals, came to power
when Theoderic managed to bring together the Pannonian Goths under his
rule. His genealogical table is like so many others a later construction.
(Compare the older Swedish genealogical table).
However, there is no reason to doubt the geographical decriptions by
Jordanes about the original home of the Goths. He writes that the Goths
came from an island that looks like a "juniper with bulging sides that
taper down to a point at a long end."  The name of the island is Skandza
(sometimes Skandia, Skadia) and is located in the Baltic, straight out from
the river mouth of the river  Vistula.
Another argument is that the professor in Nordic litterature Elias Wessén
considered the Gothic and Gotlandic languages to be as similar as if they
were identical. He writes in "Fornvännen" 1969: "There are several language
lines through the Nordic language area and the Gothic language always
agrees with the eastern parts of Scandinavia, mainly with the Gotlandic
language on Gotland." Wessén continues: "If the Gutar on Gotland and the
Goths in the Vistula area originally were the same people, they must still
during the first centuries A.D. mainly have spoken the same language. This
is the language that later on in southern Europe appears as Gothic.
Probably this mother language for Gothic and ancient Gotlandic
(forngutniska) did not differ very much from other ancient Nordic
languages. However, the similarities with the Gothic language is nowhere in
Scandinavia as good as in "forngutniska". In Spain the tradition is still
so strong that the Goths descended from Gotland that a father in the
Catholic church outside of Santiago de Compostella arranges cultural tours
in the tracks of the Goths. It was the Goths who christianized Spain and
built most of the old churces. This father can't understand people who want
to deny the Gotlandic ancestry of the Goths.
There seems to be some unscientific reason to the Swedish standpoint that
the Goths under no circumstances could originate from Gotland. Let us
instead presume that the Goths originated from Gotland, penetrate this and
through careful analysis try it with scientific methods"

Tore

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