[gothic-l] People Names/GJOTA/CADMUS

[Beril Haggman]

Keth,

Professor Andersson in Uppsala is on the
professional board of advosors Hoops with
another Swedish Professor E. Baudou in Umeaa.
The other non-Germana are Professor Loyn in London,
Professor Naumann of Zuerich, Professor Pohl
of Vienna, Professor Reichert (whom you know of) of
Vienna, Professor Thrane of Aarhus, Wilson of London
and Wolfram (well known to this list) of Vienna.
Andersson is also the editor of Namn och Bygd,
published by Kungl Gustav Adolfsakademien in Uppsala.

As I am no professional linguist I hesitate to go into this
but Germanic is related to Baltic and Slavic. K.T. Witczak wrote
on the re-Germanic substrata and Germanic
maritime vocabulary in a volume, _The Indo-Europeanization
of Northern Europe_ (1996), which you maybe could consult.

Never heard in Swedish of fish "gjuta rom" under water.
Is this something peculiar to Norwegian?

Have never seen the explanation underneath relating
gjuta/giessen to Bronze Age casting. It is not uncommon
to relate "shedder of semen" to a well known word 
construction process like the Greek arraen, arsaen
"male, man" in turn related to rain, moisten, wet. There
is according to Andersson no alternative to the most
common theory. There was once a theory that the Goths
were named after *Gut, a theoretical part of the
Baltic Sea,  but of course one can always discuss 
a topographic solution.

In the case of the name of the Gauts/Goths/Gutar man
must in the connection with semen mean the ability
of reproduce, man as the reproducer. It is possible that his
explanation is "too simple" bit it is the common explanation
(Andersson: "Einigkeit besteht heute dareueber, dass
die Stammesbezeichnungen goetar und Goten/gutar
ablautend mit dem Verb urgerm. *geutan, dt. giessen
irgendwie zusammenhaengen. Andere Vorschlaege, die 
gemacht worden sind, brauchen nicht mehr beachtet
zu werden.")  So why should there be a connection with
myth to make it complicated enough?

Personally I have problems with connecting Hesiodos
(I guess you are referriong to him?) with the Goths.
After all Hesiod wrote around 700 BC. 

But all theories are worth studying as after all the
explanations we discuss are theories. 

Gothically

Bertil

 



I should like to see you write up something more about what
Prof. Anderson's area of specialisation is, if you have the 
information. I note that he has been invited as one of the
contributors to the Reallexicon, which I think is quite an
honour. He is Swedish, as I assume from his name, as
well as his publications in Namn och Bygd.

Who was it that said Germanic has a large set of its vocabulary
filled up with words that you do not find in the other Indo-
European languages? And that these words were to a large extent
words of maritime connotation? Do you have the references for
that in your files? 

Citat fra Jonas Lie: "faa dem (skøiterne) til at sidde 
som støbt paa foden."

But there is an important point about which I was not explicit
in my previous post, and that is that iron age technology
implied a hammering but not a melting of the iron. Luckily,
this turned out to give a high quality of steel, and it
wasn't necessary to work at the much higher temperatures
that would have been required to melt the iron. But in the
Bronze Age, I believe the Bronze was always cast, which
was also possible at such an early stage in the history
of technology, because copper and tin have much lower
melting points than iron does.

The point then is, that if "gjóta, gautar, gotar" refers
to "cast men", then it is probably a name that derives
from the Bronze Age.   This hypothesis could then 
also be tested, by looking for evidence of bronze
casting around the Baltic. It would have to be in the
vicinity of the Baltic, since it is a Germanic word,
and the early Germanics lived in the vicinity of the
Baltic. These hypothetical Bronze Age Goths must then
also have lived there; it is only that we do not know
on which side of the ocean they lived or whether it
was on one of the islands. But if we could find a center
for the production of bronze objects somewhere in the
region, then maybe these were the Goths. I don't know
if bronze production was uniformly distributed or not.
But if there was a major center in the Baltic region,
then these may have been the early Goths !    :)

Perhaps "Wotan" or "Gaut" was also an image of the
Bronze Age metal worker, and the dwarves who in the myth
make all his sacred objects are his laborerers or thralls.
(Bertil, this is just to propose an alternative theory,
since you are always on the lookout for such)
The mythic king who disappears into the mountain
running after a dwarf, and returning with much treasure
after having magically constrained the dwarf, is an
image of the  metal prospector, who sucessfully returns
with his bounty.

It could mean "men", but then again, what does "man/men"
mean? Wouldn't the name have to reflect some mythic 
ideas about what a man *is* or what his origin is?
The word "man" or "maðr" is supposed to have an etymology
related to a word for "thinking" (mind). Thus a "man"
is "he who thinks". But in other languages the words
they use for "man" may have a different connotation.

For example in Hebrew, one of the words for man is
"adam", which is supposed to mean "earth". Here the
myth behind the name is that the first man was 
created from earth. That is why he got the name "adam".
This is another example that very often there is
a creation myth connected with a name for "man".
That is why I am saying that your reading as "semen"
is too simple, since it does not point toward
a myth of origin.

The Cadmus myth I quoted, is another example of
mytological connotations tied to the word that is
used for "people".

Here is the example of the "brazen men" in Gk. Myth:

    Zeus the Father made a third generation of
    mortal men, a brazen race, sprung from 
    Ash-trees ; and it was in no way equal
    to the silver age ; but it was terrible 
    and strong. They loved the lamentable
    works of Ares and deeds of violence ;

Could this be the "Goths"?   ;)





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