[gothic-l] Vandals et c.

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Hi Dirk,


" There is - in the  Hasding subtribe.
What is the source for that please?"

I  have searched frenetically in Hachmann, Wolfram and Wenskus. I know
it is treated in one of them but I can not find the place right now in
my disorderly photocopy-collection - I do not have the books in one
piece. Will search further when I get the time. Still Wenskus have
treated the probable common background for both langobards, vandals and
harudes but regards it as formations from originally small cores from
the proposed areas of Vendsyssel, Hardsyssel  and Scania who later have
gathered people from other backgroundaccepting their traditions.
Something like my idea about the origin of the Gothic tribeformation.
The fact the Vandals and the Goths were such enemies points just in the
direction of an earlier dependency of the Vandals, meaning they
originally could have had a common general background until the Goths
broke loose.The connection via Ring-names between Goths, Burgundians and
Vandals however is strong as I see it. At least later also several
Vandilic kings had Gothic  ancestry meaning intermarriage wich NORMALLY
the Goths did not practice exept with Vandals and Burgundians.



For an interpretation of Paulus' Historia Langobardorum, and the Origo
Gentis it is necessary to study all the related literature. I belief
we cannot simply take what is nowaydays accepted to be a mere topos of
early medieval histiogragphy (Scandza topos) and take it as fact. Both
Hachmann and Goffart analysed these problems in-depth as you know. to
give but one of the difficulties. The earlier Fredegar chronicle
stated that the Langobards came from Scathanavia which lies between
the Danube and the Ocean. Also the Codis Gothanis, which is roughly
contemporary to Paulus stated that the Langobards came from Scatanauge
at the Elbe river. In fact the Codis gothanis is the only of the
sources that placed the origin of the Langobards within an
identifiyable geographic area. "

Wenskus points out for example the Langobardic law and also their names
as most related to ON and Scandinavian law-tradition. Goffart is also
rejected by Wolfram.

"The fact that the Langobards mentioned Gausus means very little. King
Rothari, to whome this referes was said to have been of Harudian
origin. Now the Harudes were a sub-tribe of the Saxons of which some
20,000 accompanied the Langobards to Italy, and the Saxons also
counted Gaut among their gods."

Wenskus does not regard the Harudes as Saxons but mentions Hardsyssel
but, as stated above, he means they started as a small core. We have
already  discussed it once before and I pointed out that they also were
settled in Hordaland, Norway.(Wenskus, Höfler)



"I think nobody really regards the name similarity Suebian/Suionean as
anything but coincidental, at
least not  implying comon orign, but you make your statement as if you
know that for sure. At any rate, what do the Suevi have to do with the
Scandinavian Bronze Age? The Suevi was a name of the bearers of iron
age cultures in the Germania magna. They are first mentioned in the 50s
BC, i.e. some 500 years after the end of the Bronze Age."

This is also discussed by Wenskus who does not deny a relationship
betwen these names  but he of course does not state it is so. This is my
own and original interpretation.I regard everybody living in Scandinavia
including Jutland and surrounding continental areas as Suiþioþ during
that period and that's why the name survived even after the formation of
tribes whose rulers claimed descent from Gaut/Wodan. For people in the
south the area was regarded as a single unity. The Suebes I regard as a
rest of the old loose league as also the Suiones. Maybe I am wrong and I
have no sources - just logics and linguistics and   general
archeo-demographic analysis.I deal a lot with  these questions in the
book but I have no time to spend all day by the computer to write it all
down. Hopingly I can find a publisher of an English edition.

I hope this answer will satisfy.
Kindly
Ingemar


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