[gothic-l] Re: Harlingen

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hei Troels!
Måske vi kunde fri til en af de sprogmægtige professorer der jo
findes på listen ? Jeg skriver altså på dansk, for at tiltrække
meg de sprogmægtiges opmærksomhed! Det vi altså gærne vil vide
er hvad som regnes som standardværk når det gælder tyske, østerrigske
og nederlandske stedsnavne.

(Dessuden bliver en stundom ked af at kun tale de insulæres sprog,
der unægtelig er et mæget vakkkert sprog, men når det så går på
bekostning af alle de andre sprogene vi behærsker, bliver en stundom
noget betænkt, da de sidstnævnte jo mæget læt kunde tænkes at gåe
i glæmmebogen ;)



>Keth - Thank you for your answer below!
>
>These are also the places I found, but reading Germanic-list I 
>believe Dirk refers to the name of a town in Germany, which is not in 
>my map. I am of course interested to know which of these places have 
>earlier been attested as Herulingo and Herlingo - in order to find 
>the source and especially to know the age and other possible forms, 
>as I am sure Dirk has spelled the names correctly.
>
>Both places are in the area where the Western Heruls could be 
>expected to live, when we combine the Roman sources. A similar name 
>from 832/853 is found close to or in the Herulian areas of Austria 
>(Herilungoburg/Herilungevelde confirmed by Andreas). 
>
>I did not see the importance of the Frisian name Harlingen before 
>Dirk also provided us with the earlier form, but the 4 names above 
>and their reverse combinations of letters could be another indication 
>confirming the theory about a connection between the words Eruli
>(L)/Herul(G/E), Eorl(OE)/Earl(E)/Erell(Irish 847) and ErilaR(ON runes 
>450-550) as H is often silent. 
>
>I have this question to our linguists:  
>
>Is it possible to compare acceptable deviations from the same name in 
>this way? 
>Names of places: Herul- - Harl-/Herl- - Heril-
>Names of groups: Herul  - Earl  -  Erel-/Eril-
>
>The ending -ingo/-ungo/-unge might be the ending known from Nibelungen
>(G), Völsungen(G), Skjoldunger(D) or Ynglinge(S) - or from the
>name mentioned in connection with the Goths in Widsith: Herelingas
>(OE) probably being the Heruls.  

I recall that around 3 or 4 years ago, on Oldnorsenet I asked Hermann
Reichert about suffixes, and he was kind enough to answer and give a
short perspective on some aspects of the topic. One sentence he wrote
that fixed itself in my memory, is that he said a lot more research
needed to be done on suffixes. (in Germanic and Indo-European languages
I assume he meant, because that was the context. Especially the Germanic ones.)

At the time I also did some look-up work concerning such suffixes
as we are now discussing. In particular the -ling suffix, that should
be distinguished from the -ing suffix. For example in Holland they
say "stommeling" (=dummkopf!), whereas in Norway we say "dumming".
(fx "Han er ingen dumming.")

Well, -ing and -ling suffixes in placenames? Scandinavia, Holland,
Germany?   I do not know enough about it. The only thing I know
is the coastal Holland has a number of placenames that are very
reminiscent of Scandinavian ones. For example "Stavenisse", 
which should correspond to Norwegian "Staveness"  (=the promontory
of sticks [staffs]) That is only an example. When it comes to
the -ing suffix in placenames, then Holland has a number of these:
Vlissingen (English='Flushing' which is in Zeeland), Scheveningen
(and old fishing town on the North Sea. It has been in the news
lately because that is where the incarcerated Milosewicz)
And of course also Harlingen, which is, as I pointed out, also 
harbour and fishing town.  THen I also found "Wieringen" which is
the (once) island on the other side of the Afsluitdijk from
Harlingen, i.e. at the entrance to the old Zuiderzee. (today
Ijsselmeer - since 1932 a freshwater lake)

On the other side of the ocean "Hastings" also comes to mind --
which conforms to the -ing names I found in Holland and Friesland,
which were all coast towns. Then on the other side of the Pas de Calais
there is a place called "Cravelines". Could that be the French version
of a former Flemmish coastal town on -ling? Possibly. It could be looked
into. In that case it would mirror Hastings.

Any way, from these examples it appears as quite undecided to assume that
-ing in North Sea coastal/fishing town names has anything to do with
royal houses of Germanic legend. But of course, it _could_
be, especially since I don't know what the placename suffix -ling means.
(for other coastal place names in Holland, I do however know what the
suffix means; e.g. -nisse in Stavenisse means 'promontory', næs)

Then there are also the inland examples that Dirk mentioned from
Germany: Göppingen, Göttingen,... But here I simply don't have an
idea. (note added: in Holland also 'Kralingen' in Rotterdam)

If we however quite heuristically look at 'Flushing' in Zeeland
(=Vlissingen inn the local language) then it is as if I am able to
look through the name, and see the tides that are important in
the region washing in and out of the harbours. So there does seem
to be a relationship to the motion of water in that particular name.
And it will then also be suspected that some verb is involved.
English 'to flush', German 'fließen' etc. Also names like Vlieland,
Vliestroom, seem to imply such a connotation. If that is correct,
then maybe the -ing only has the function of making the verb into
a nomen??  Does anyone havve an explanation of "Hastings"?
Wouldn't it rather have someting to do with horses, than with the 
royal house of the Vandals? 

For "Harlingen" my only association is the Dutch word "Harlekijn".
But that seems an unlikely association. My best bet is simply
that it may have something to do with the fish the call "haring",
which makes sense if it is an old fishing port. (the 3rd century
Latinized form "aringius" shows that this is a very old name for the fish)
In Holland there is also the "Haringvliet", which is a broad water
South of Rotterdam, but North of and parallel to the Schelde.


>Troels
>
>
>--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
>> >--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>> >
>> >> However, somebody on this list once suggested that they should 
>> >> really be called Erils, which I could however not follow. One 
>> >> indication may be the placename Harlingen in Frisia, which is 
>> >> also attested as Herulingo and Herlingo and which is supposed to 

I argued with Bertil about that a year ago,
when he claimed rune stones with "ek erilar"
inscriptions proved the Heruls resettled in Sweden in the 6th century.
I then pointed out that there were in fact more ek erilar inscriptions 
in Norway than in Sweden, and that besides, the Latin sources
always write it with an "H", which would, according to me, have been
a real Germanic feature of the pronounciation, and 'ence 'ardly
'ave bn dopped fom the ponounciation  :)


Bertil then answered that "yes, but in Greek it is without h-..."
I then retorted that in Greek initial h is marked
with a comma, like in Hellas/Hellenes/Helenic < 'Ellas,
where the small but significant comma indicates the initial aspirate.

My point is that the runes reflected the way they actually spoke the words,
and that hence "Herul" in runes would have to start with the H-rune.
(just like the Vimose comb inscription that we discussed, also
started with H)

Best regards
Keth


>> >have 
>> >> been derived from the western Heruls.
>> >
>> >Hi Dirk
>> >
>> >At my map there is a town in Netherland north of Ijsselmeer called 
>> >Harlingen and a region in Ostfriesland, Germany called Harlinger 
>> >Land. Are both names of the same origin?
>> >
>> >Troels
>> 
>> Hei Troels!
>> 
>> I find Harlingen 26 kilometers almost straight West from
>> Leeuwarden, which is the capital of the Dutch province
>> (one of the 11) of Friesland. It lies on the coast jjust
>> about 9 kilometers Nort of the point where the large
>> "Afsluitdijk" connects to the Frisian side of the Ijssel-
>> meer. There is also a "Harlingerland" just outside 
>> Willemshafen about 50 kilometers West of Hamburg. It too
>> is on the "Waddenzee"/"Wattenmeer".
>> 
>> Harlingen in Frieland, Nederland is the port of the province
>> Friesland. It has been an important fishing port, but also
>> an important port for import and export of merchandise.
>> Litterature:
>> D.A.Postema: "Gedenkboek ter gelegenheid van het 700-jarig
>> bestaaan van de stad Harlingen" (1934).
>> T.Marseille: "Harlingen de vermaerde zeestad."(1985)
>> It is a beautiful town and the annual fishing days
>> and ship exhibition day attract many tourists.
>> 
>> Whether the name has anything to do with "Heruls" I 
>> do not know. Nor do I know anything about the oldest
>> written records of the name. The 700 year city aniversary
>> in 1934 seems to me to be quite in the normal order of things.
>> Whether this name from the 13th century can then be 
>> projected backward in time yet another 7 centuries
>> so that the name can be linked to "Heruls" is unknown
>> to me.
>> 
>> Best regards
>> Keth
>
>
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