Herulos [gothic-l] or ... Eruli?

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Bertil,
What I am saying is that you forgot about the apostroph as it is called and it was in fact also pointed out by Jeff Burke, in a post he had not long ago. So you cannot ihnore the apostrophe, because that is a letter too. i.e. a sign that tellls the reader to pronounce a certain sound. Keth

It may indeed be very small, and with fine print it may not appear as much more than a very small accent. But is should nevertheless be there. Keth

Take as example the name  H E R C U L E S. How do you propose it is written in Greek ? What Greek letters would you use if you were asked to write it in school ?  (Do you have a Greek dictionary?) Keth

(And there may actually have been a relationship between Hercules and the Heruleans). Keth



>The original Greek rendering is Eruli and Erouloi. In the passage to Latin sometimes H appears, which is unetymological like fort instance in (H)erminones. Besides the stem would be *er and  the basic word should be *erula-, erila-, *erla. Also note the personal names Erl-wini, Erle-gardis, etc. Also I seem to remember that Justinian II and Mauricius had the byname Erullicus added. Bertil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>Jordanes in § 117 mistakenly call the Eruli the Eluri but several times uses Herulorum in §§ 117-119. Bertil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While it is true that it in Getica § 117 is written "Eluri nominate sunt", it also says "quas Greci ele vocant", which also has to be taken into consideration. In fact, in the "Etymologicum magnum" p. 333 it clearly says that " apo ton echeise elon 'Elouroi keklentai . Dexippos en dodekatps chronichon."  And Stephanus Byzantius says : " 'Elouroi Skuthicon ethnos, peri on Dexippos en chronikon ib. " So you see that the Greek sources in fact DO use the famed apostroph that indicates to the reader that an initial H has to be applied. Keth.

Let me then also add the exact Greek transcription, which is:

   /apostroph/epsilon/lambda/omicron/upsilon/rho/omicron/iota/

      '        E        l      o       u     r     o      i
      ^
     /|\     
      |   -- the arrow points out the all-important apostrophe,
      |      because that  IS  the  H.


In fact, Jordanes never writes anything but Heruli/Herulos/Herulum etc
althoug a maximum of 2 of the 12 Ms. variants from time to time drop
the H. But it is never done in a consistent manner throughout the
same manuscript, and must hence be seen as a result of inaccuracies.
In fact, it appears reasonable to assume that sloppy scribes, 
transcribing from Greek to Latin sometimes forgot to read the apostroph.
But since it was done incosistently, it can be easily explained as the
result of oversight. Keth


>If you want to use Heruli you are welcome.  Bertil.

That is of course nonsense, Bertil, that you as "chief goth" should
"allow" me to write it with an "H". That is totally beside the point!
What I am after, is how it was originally pronounced. And for that
you need to go to the sources and look at how the name was written 
in the original Greek and Latin manuscripts. And we have now determined
that Greek and Roman sources BOTH use initial H.  Keth

What stopped our discussion one years ago, were the lack of
access to the sources. But that has been solved now.
Still, back then it was frustrating to see how you ignored
the all-important apostrophe, even when I repeatedly 
pointed it out to you, you were like an ostrich not
wishing to see it. And I now realize that it is because you
wish to use the <ek erilar> inscriptions as "proof" 
that the Heruls reimmigrated to Halland in South Sweden
in the sixth century. And that is the reason why you
in your answers never wishes to acknowledge, or even
mention that the Greeks had such a sign, and that 
they used it, and that it meant H.   Keth




>Besides Herulen (German, but I have seen Eruler used) and heruler (Swedish) is used with H. I do recall Johann  Georg Hamann writing an essay in defense of the letter H. Someone had suggested that as H was more or less soundless anyway, it could just as well be abolished. I wouldn certainly prefer H being retained. Bertil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is again entirely beside the point. That is modern usage, and people write the way they wish. The question is how it was written at the time the Heruls actually existed. Keth



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