[gothic-l] Possible Gothic Origin - Cultic, Linguistic and Historical References

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Dear Bertil,

Below I will try to provide you with some good counter-
arguments, something a theory always is in need of,
since "truth" is seldom forced through lack of alternatives.
I therefore hope the following "food" will serve to
quicken and animate your theory:


You wrote:
>see for instance Carlo Alberti Mastrelli, I Goti, 1994

>elogically there are incineration burials in Oester-
>and Vaestergoetland that were numerous in the second
>and first centuries BC and suddenly became rare after
>about 50 BC. That is suggesting the migration of a significant
>portion of the previous population.

Couldn't it simply mean a change in burial customs?
They might still have burnt the dead, but maybe they
put the ashes on small boats, and let them sail away
(like Scylf) etc.. There could be a number of explanations.
Maybe even a plague so that the population was much
reduced. Poeverty, loss of their slaves, etc could have caused
them to stop building mounds etc etc..
And so I don't see a link between a decrease in a type of grave
and emigration. Also, it tells you nothing about an emigration
in a particular direction. Maybe the herring changed its pattern
of migration, and so they had no more food there.(this has happened
in historic times too) They could also have gone West, into
Norway, because there was better conditions there. This too
has happened in historic times. (many people from Finnland
settled in NorwaY) they could also have gone North, a process
that can be historically documented. For example the 
Migration Age expansion Northward along the Norwegian coast
(with ships, a thousand miles to sail maybe: it was no barrier)
(the North was a good place to stay in some periods)



>What could be the reason for the migration? Changing
>climatic conditions have been suggested. Deteriorating
>climate has been researched and the results (mainly for
>moor excavations) point to such an explanation. 

see above for a number of possibilities.

The climate is supposed to have worsened at the end of the Bronze Age.
I gave an alternative theory of the Goths as bronze age nation,
whose name means "the cast people" (=gjotne männesker)
and pointed out that such legends did exist at the other
end of the Bernstein route in the Bronze Age.

>It is not likely that there was a mass migration and at least
>a limited migration of aristocratic clans is highly likely. They

Unlikely that a few aristocrats conquered huge land areas.

>could have organized the local poulation and given it their
>name. This would be in the similar vein as the Viking 
>migration to Russia and Normandy. On the other hand 
>the lack of incineration funerals in Oester- and Vaestergoetland
>point to the fact that all social strata in Goetaland/Gautland
>were affected. The dominance of the Wielbark culture in
>the Vistula area could point to a similar pattern as during the Viking
>era as Scandinavians were quickly assimilated into the
>numerous surrounding population.




>What was the reason for the Gothic migration to the south? It

or: "If there was such an emigration, what may it's reasons have been?"
But above I showed you the North as well as West are historically
documented as "directions of migrations".

Maybe they didn't migrate in just one direction??
Why not postulate several directions of migration?
Snorri tells in Ynglinga saga about early connections
between Sweden and Finland. Although there may have been
some unfriendly people there at times, they may still
have gone there.



>is not probable that they would have migrated north. To the

See above. North is historically documented
as direction of migration.

>west from Goetaland lay the vast expanse of the North Sea and

Norway was West from Goetaland.
(Ynglingasaga tells about such an expansion towards the West)


>in the East were hostile peoples. One possible explanation

See Ynglingasaga for early connections with Finland.


>for choosing the southerly route was the amber trade and the
>Amber Way, and old trade route linking Scandinavia with the eastern
>Mediterranean as early as 1800 BC. The southern Baltic was also a
>traditional area of Scandinavian contacts.

The "Amber Way" as you call it, would have brought them in
contact with Greek civilisation.


>On this list there has been detailed presentation of the
>linguistic relation between the Goths, the Gauts, the Gutar
>and for instance Procopius' Gautoi, which are attested
>in southern Scandinavia. Jordanes is of course not the
>only source to link the Goths to southern Scandinavia.
>A huge majority of scholars attest the Scandinavian migration
>of the Goths from Scandinavia and that it is highly probable.
>No viable alternative has been forthcoming. So it is certainly

I have presented you with many alternatives.
When you say "no viable..etc" then I assume that includes mine.
But you did not present any counter arguments.

So I ask again.
1) Why must the "Goths" suddenly have sprung into existence
in Sweden and then after only a few generations there, suddenly
have emigrated? Isn't it more likely that if there was such an emigration
that it was a nation that had been around for a while that emigrated?
Hence, why cannot the Goths have had their etnogenesis already
in the Bronze Age. (cast men/gjotne män) ?
2) Why do you reject migrations in other directins than South.
Migrations in the other 3 directions are well documented for later periods.


>not enough to diminish the value of the Jordanes' Scandza
>chapters to make Scandinavian origin unlikely. There
>must be some added indications of other origin? Indication
>that the Goths migrated eastward in northern Germania?
>Archeological or linguistical indications? But none have so
>far in a convincing way been forthcoming.

In summary: the only reason we hear about Southen migrations,
is because in the South there were men who could write.

I'll give an example. (a "Gedanken" experiment - an oh so
typical thing in scientific thinking)

A man lives South of an island. On the island are many birds.
The man sets up his nets where he lives, that is south of
the island. And then he begins to catch birds. He then asks
himself the question: "Why is it that all the birds I catch
are coming from the North?"

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(answwer: because he is sitting South of the island)


Best regards
Keth



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