[gothic-l] Re: Gutland Contacts With the Goths on Crimea

Tue Jun 12 13:42:41 UTC 2001

--- In gothic-l at y..., bertil <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Matthew, Anders, and esteemed listmembers,
> 
> Unfortunately some from Stockholm who have written
> on Gutnish and Gothic make all kinds of attempts
> to make interpretations that avoid the links
> between OLd gutnish and Gothic. This is well
> known. One Stockholm rea´searche has even tried
> to use the explanation that Gotland means the
> "streamland". The interpretations of Professor
> Elias Wessén and Professor Bugge are of course on
> the right track. Underneath further on Gutland contacts
> with Crimea.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil

Yes, what do those experts at Stockholm University Institute of 
Linguistics know about Scandinavian languages. Especially since we 
had people like Elias Wessen, who I belief wrote mostly in the 
1930/40s.

The  link below takes you to a recent paper on Swedish Gothicism. It 
is entitled "Scandinavia the Home of the Goths? - Gothicism as a basis 
for  Nordic-Swedish national Identity". It explains why (mostly in the 
past) Swedes where so eager to prove that the Goths came from Sweden 
(even if it costs the truth).

> Gutland Contacts With the Goths on Crimea
> 
> An indication of these contacts can be found in the rich silver 
treasures of the Viking era on the island of Gotland. Coins originate 
in the southeast and even longer eastward in the Caliphate, but used 
in the Black Sea area as payment.

Yes, these coins occur in all of Russia and where widely used by 
people who did not mint themselves. But they circulated in the 
9th/10th century and have nothing to do with the Goths or Gotland.

> 
> Gutnish Vikings also travelled to areas near Crimea. The Pilgaards 
>Runestone in Boge Parish, Gutland, from the end of the 10th century 
>has a text saying the Ravn brothers came to Aifur, a rapid of Dniepr, 
not far from Crimea.
> 

Gotlanders were famous traders and there is no reason to doubt that 
some of them visited the Crimea, which again has nothing to do with 
the Goths.

> In the 2nd century AD a large migration was likely undertaken from 
>Gutland as described in the Guta Saga. One can thus contemplate 
>Gutnish relations in Ukraine and on the Crimean peninsula. The folk 
>music researcher Jan Ling has for instance found connections between 
folk music in Sweden and in Ukraine.

Even if this connection was true (and not the product of Swedish 
Gothicism) one can think of plenty of reasons for such similarity to 
arise a migration is only one of them. 

> 
> Lingustically the name of Gutar is very close to the Goths, who 
>early wrote themselves gutans and Gut-thiu-da – the Gothic people. So 
>the indications of a relationship exist both in archaeology, own 
>traditions, runestones, finds of coins, historical contacts and 
linguistic affinity that the Gutar are almost identical with the 
Goths. 
> 

That is most likely true, but it does not mean that Goths came from 
Gotland. Continental Goths may at some stage have expanded in all 
directions, to offer only one explanation. Also, the name of Samland 
where the Baltic Sami lived appears to be linguistically very close to 
the Saami of North Scandinavia. Coincidence? Migration?

> Examples of linguistic affinity can be found in Stein (Crimean 
>gothic 1554) and stein in Gutnish of the 19th century. Further stega 
>(20) = staejg, salt = salt, broe (bread) = broe and hus = hus. The 
>Crimean Gothic language is a mixture of Old Gothic and some north- or 
northwest Germanic. 

I doubt that Crimean Gothic is any closer to Gutnish than it is to 
most other Germanic languages. Some of the words are identical to 
modern High German and many are identical to modern Low German.

>Some researchers (for instance Loewe) have pointed 
>also to the Eruli, who were driven away from Denmark by the Danes and 
>who co-operated with the Goths in the Black Sea area in the 3rd 
century.

I cannot see what the Eruli have to do with a link between Gutnish and 
Gothic.  

> 
> As the Crimean Gothic language may have lasted well into the 18th 
>century it should not be impossible to do research on the Crimea and 
>look for linguistical evidence of affinity. Placenames and archival 
sources, if they remain after for instance World War II, could shed 
light on the riddle of the Crimean Gothic language.

I cannot think of an indication that Crimean Gothic lasted 'well into 
the 18th century'. At any rate it was not a written language and I 
believe that placename studies so far bore very little fruit. But 
serious research is always welcome.

> 
> It could well be that the Gutar joined the Goths and during periods 
had direct contact with the Crimean Goths. On Crimea some Gutar would 
then have been assimilated. The Gutar travelled in the direction of 
Crimea and the Black Sea historically. A Guta colony could have been 
created on Crimea used as a point of rest for Gutar travelling to 
Constantinople.

Yes, that is all possible but pure speculation unless you have 
evidence that the Crimean Goths assimilated traveling Gotlanders. 

> 
> There is a host of questions to be answered. No doubt the rests of 
Crimean Gothic language also could be close to German. So other 
possibilities exist but the Gutland-Crimean Gothia connection is in 
need of a project just like other projects such as Dr. Thor 
Heyerdahl's contacts with scientific academies in Azerbaijan and 
Georgia plus Rostov University. Research should be made in place and 
be well financed. To speculate in chambers geographically far away 
from where history happened is not enough. 

Thor Heyerdahl's expedition is bound to be successful, financially 
that, as all his other  pseudo-scientific projects. But it gives the 
local archaeologists the oppostunity to continue their excavations of 
Greek cities and Roman/Bosporan colonies, which is what they want.

A starter could be the 
historic texts of the sagas and thank you Tore for bringing the text 
to the list of the original Guta Saga. Now we just lack a translation 
into English for those not familiar with the likeness between Old 
Gutnish and (Crimean) Gothic.

> 
> Copyright Bertil Haggman 2001

Oh yes, I almost forgot, if you know Gothic you can simply read the 
Guta Saga in its original:-) 

(sorry couldn't resist :-))

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