[gothic-l] Re: The Goths, Gutland (Gutones) and the Guta Saga

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi Tore,

if the first written records of Old Gutnish are from the 13th instead
of the 14th century, that is fine. It does not change the fact that
Gutnish is an East Scandinavian/North Germanic language. If that
linguist who you mention, Ingemar Olson, told you otherwise, that is
inexplicable. I can only say that I have heard from a linguist at
Stockholm University that modern Gutnish is usually classified as a
dialect of Swedish. Whether this is rightly done or not or a
Stockholm-conspiracy (as Bertil suggested) I don't know.

Also, you imply that Elias Wessen and Bugge are still 'cutting edge'
as Wessen's quote that 'Gutnish and Gothic are basically the same' was
published in 1969. However, I maintain that this assertation is
nowadays condidered to be completely wrong.

I suspect that there is not much that could make you change your
mind, if you dismiss the opinion of modern linguists and the result of
the simple comparison done here on the list, which already made it
bluntly clear that Old Gutnish and Gothic are not the same. What is
required on your part is real linguistis evidence that Old Gutnish and
Gothic are indeed the same or at least very closely related.
Quotes from Wessen or Bugge are of no help.

I cannot say on what sort of observation or study Wessen based his
findings, but wishful thinking seemed to have had more to do with it
than honest analysis. Here is the link to the article about Swedish
Gothicism again, which did not copy properly the first time. I suppose
from this article it becomes very clear what motivated people like
Wessen in his time.

http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/gemenskap/inhalt/publikationen/arbeitspapi
ere/ahe_07.html


cheers,

Dirk





--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
>
> >
> >Hi Anders and Matthew,
> >
> >thanks for your replies. I understand the difficulties in comparing
> >two languages that are separated by some 1200 years. However, being
> >unable to understand Gothic and Gutnish myself, my question was
simply
> >whether or not the claim that Gutnish is basically Gothic (which a
> >certain Elias Wessen seems to have made in one form or another) is
> >valid or not. Personally, I would have found it very exiting if
Gothic
> >had survived beyond the 6th century not only on the Crimean, but
also
> >on Gotland.
> >
> >However, the answer that is emerging seems to be that Gutnish and
Old
> >Gutnish are not Gothic and are not decendants of Gothic. This is
also
> >the view of a linguist friend of mine at Stockholm University, who
> >confirmed that sources for Old Gutnish go back to the 14th century;
> >that it belongs the the East Scandinavian Languages and that
Gutnish
> >is normally classified as a (unfortunately almost extinct) dialect
of
> >Swedish.
>
> Dirk,
> The Guta law and Guta saga is written down about 1220 and was the
official
> language of Gotland and well established at that time. There is a
time
> frame of about 800 years between written Gothic and written Gutnish.
>
> Gotlandic (Gutnish) is not classified as an extinct dialect of
Swedish.
>
> If you want I can provide the full text of Guta lagh in Gutnish.
>
> Here follows the index and first paragraph
>
> Guta Lagh
> 1.	Hier byrias fyrstum.
> 2.	Af barnum.
> 3.	Af tiunt.
> 4.	Af blotan.
> 5.	Af prestum.
> 7.	Af munca aigum.
> 8.	Af mann helg.
> 9.	Af aldra manna frith.
> 10.	Af warfrithi.
> 11.	Af thingfrithi.
> 12.	Af haima frithi.
> 13.	Af mandrapi.
> 14.	Af lutnum sacum.
> 15.	Af wereldum manna.
> 16.	Af banda wereldum.
> 17.	Af osoythom.
> 18.	Af berthri cuna.
> 19.	Af sarum.
> 20.	Af lutum.
> 	Af mannj innitaknum
> 21.	Af hor carllum.
> 22.	Af quinna scam.	O
> 23.	Af quinna gripum.
> 24.	Af brythlaupum.
> 	Af erfis gierthum.
> 	Af scarlathi.
> 	Af raithclethum.
> 	Af gutniscum cunum.
> 	Af ogutniscu fulki.
> 	Af farvegum manz.
> 25.	Af scoga brigslum.
> 26.	Af halfgierthi.
> 27.	Af sauthi.
> 28.	Af aigna caupi.
> 29.	Af gieldum.
> 30.	Af wethium.
> 31.	Af thingum.
> 32.	Af fear crafi.
> 	Af cauptum mannj
> 33.	Af cauptum uksa.
> 	Af cauptri ko
> 34.	Af cauptum hestj.
> 35.	Af hesta tect.
> 36.	Af scipa gezlum.
> 37.	Af ranzaki.
> 38.	Af thiaufa reth.
> 39.	Af oquethins orthum.
> 40.	Af o merctu smafilethi.
> 41.	Af svinum.
> 42.	Af bo lambum.
> 43.	Af fastum vethuri o
> 	cliptum.
> 44.	Af fastum vethuri
> 	cliptum.
> 45.	Af buccum oc gaitum.
> 	Af nautum oc russum
> 46.	Af a merki.
> 47.	Af acrum.
> 48.	Af rofu acrum.
> 49.	Af hafreki.
> 50.	Af eldi.
> 51.	Af bieru eldi.
> 52.	Af broa gerth.
> 53.	Af scuti	.
> 54.	Af warthi.
> 55.	Af husum oc
> 	hus thiauthum.
> 56.	Af byrgslu fulki.
> 	Af setha lausu fulki
> 57.	Af i cornum.
> 58.	Af herum.
> 59.	Af scafli.
> 60.	Af messu falli.
> 61.	Af dufli.
> Guta Lagh
> 1. Hier byrias lagh guta oc segia so at fyrstum
> Thitta ir fyrst upp haf i lagum orum thet wir sculum naicca haithnu
oc
> iatta crisnu. Oc troa allir aann guth alzvaldanda. Oc hann thar
bithia thet
> hann unni os ar oc frith sigr oc hailsu Oc thet et vir magin halda
> cristindomi orum Oc tro vari retri oc landi oru bygdu Oc vir magin
huern
> dag thet sysla i allum giarningum Oc vilia orum. sum guthi sei dyrth
i Oc
> or sei mest tharf at bethi til lifs oc sialar.
>
> I don't know of any Swedish professor in Nordic languages that have
even
> suggested that Gotlandic should have been a Swedish dialect. On the
> contrary they agree that Gotlandic is a separate language.
>
> Tore
>
>
>
> Although Old Gutnish retained many archaic features, it is
> >neither Gothic nor a derivation of Gothic.
> >
> >cheers
> >Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
> >
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