[gothic-l] Re: Lukman:Dansk Resume

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> In Fornvännen 1985 Gad Rausing writes
> Beowulf, Ynglingatal and the Ynglinga Saga
> Fiction or History?
> 
> I quote from the foreword:"Can Beowulf be used to test the value of 
the
> earliest Norse Sagas as historical sources?
> Since at least one, and possibly two, of the persons and of the 
events
> mentioned in Beowulf can be corroborated and dated with the help of
> contemporary chronicles we must, until the opposite can be proved, 
accept
> the rest of the accounts as historical.
> Since several persons who figure in Beowulf are also mentioned in 
other,
> independant sagas, Yngligatal, the Ynglinga Saga and Widsid, we 
must assume
> them to be historical and, if so, also the rest of the cast of 
these sagas.
> The geographical notices in Beowulf also appear to fit reality and 
the
> conslusions appear to be confirmed by the distribution of the
> archaeological material. Thus, those modern historians who have 
denied the
> historical value of the sagas appear to be wrong, since they have 
not taken
> into account all the material available. Beowulf should be taken as
> "history" and so should all the sagas with the same cast, 
Ynglingatal, the
> Ynglinga Saga and the Sköldunga Saga."
> 

Tore

I am afraid it is difficult to believe you when you (or Gad Rausing) 
argue in this way. We know Snorri used Ynglingatal in Ynglingesaga, 
and we also expect Beowulf and Widsith to be based on the same 
source. If the writer of Ynglingatal heard or read the Beowulf poem - 
which is not impossible - we might see the same names used without 
being historical if the first in the chain was only a poem.

I believe that some historical kings and events are used as a 
framework in Beowulf, but as I earlier wrote at this list Beowulf 
can't be historical - unless you believe in dragons. Lukman is 
therefore also allowed to doubt if Chochillaicus/Hugleik ever heard 
about Hrodwulf as they are only connected by the "person" Beowulf. 
However I don't agree, when he makes Hrodwulf a Herulian king in 
Pannonia as Danish chroniclers probably mixed up legends about two 
different kings. 

I assume Beowulf to contain some historical information without 
seeing anyone prove which information. My reasons are the quite 
similar legendary and archaeological connections (The boar crested 
helmets mentioned in Beowulf and Ynglingesaga are found in Mercia, 
Vendel and Oeland. Also a small figure (a god?) is found identical in 
a Vendel ship burial, an Uppsala mound and the Sutton Hoo ship 
burial). I can't see which archaeological finds Rausing referred to, 
but the archaeological aspect is opposite to Lukman's remarks in the 
Danish text which exited you. But forgive him - he wrote in 1943.

Unless the kings of Vendel were Heruls and the Heruls were a Gothic 
tribe I am now leaving the topic of Gothic-list. Am I?

Troels



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