[gothic-l] Re: Snorri and skaldskaparmal

[malmqvist52 at YAHOO.SE]

Hi Keth and everybody,


--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hi Anders,
> Just a note on ON "meginland":
> An Icelander told me that this corresponds fairly closely to
> the similar sounding English "mainland".
> Heggstad has "hovudland, fastland", which agrees.

On this  translation I trust  Karl G Johansson an Mats Malm, who 
translates the oldICELANDIC word with "Fastland".  According to 
prismas Engelska ordbok it's continent;( opposite to islands
) mainland. However, I would say that the definition mainland 
opposite to islands is the best translation.
Since I myself comes from blekinge with losts of islands along the 
coast  - Even the center of Karlskrona is on an island- for me and my 
languagewhatever you wich to call it ( I think it is Swedish) ;-
)  "fastland" is clearly " the oppossite of islands and nothing else.
I also think that people living in Kalmar/Öland and Gothenburg/the 
archipelago and even people from Gotland (when they are talking 
seriously and not of Sweden as another country) would agree with me 
on this point
  
> But I'd also like to add that we here in Norway often speak of
> "Europe" or "the Continent" as anything within Europe South
> of Scandinavian countries, excepting the British isles.
> So in our day-to-day consciousness we pretty much see ourselves as
> "insular", just like I believe the British do. That is because
> the only way to get to "Europe" is by ship.(also plane nowadays)

I find it hard to really believe this. Do the norweigans really 
seriously (not just because of EU-discussion) consider themselves 
not  living in Europe?
In any case we swedes are taught in schools how the map of Europe 
looks like and I have never felt that I don't live in Europe. I 
certainly see the British Islands as Europe too. Apparently Snorre 
also had a fairly good idea of how Europe looked like, as it appears 
of Edda and Ynlingasaga. Snorre himself lived on an Island and in the 
referred chapter he is specifially taktin about mainland as opposed 
to islands He also spent time with the lawman in Västergötland. 
Should not he know what he was talking about?

> Also, I don't think we say "I've been touring Europe" when we have
> only visited Denmark. Somehow Jutland and the other Danish isles
> also appear to us as islands. (or peninsulas)

Since  I consider myself living in Europe I never would say that I've 
been touring Europe when I've been touring Denmark. It really sounds 
absurd.
> Sweden is of course very much connected to Norway, via a long
> common border - and so we are pretty much "in the same boat".
> 
> Of course I cannot speak for all Norwegians on this.
> But I have noted this usage on several occasions, for example
> in newspapers or among friends. Would you say any of this point
> of view is also valid for Sweden ?
No, see above?

However we have a few peculiar expressions: "Kontinenten" 
and "kontinental". The original meaning of the word is 
simply "continent", but it could also, sometimes mean "what is to the 
south"
Herman Lindqvist has written an exellent chapter about this 
in "Caramba, so they never say" According to him the feel 
of "kontinenten" a little bit starts in Lund in Skåne(Scania).( do 
you agree Bertil?:-)e are a little friendlier and the atmosphere is a 
little bit hotter. Then in Copenhagen "Kontinenten" starts for real, 
but the feel could be more "kontinental"... In Paris it's even 
more "continental" but something is still missing. Madrid must be the 
ultimate "Kontinent", but isn't something missing still... or 
something like that( from my memory).

I must say say that it is only in a case like this I would use the 
word like this. But, rarely since I think it's  a myth that people 
woud be friendlier, the more south you get. 
I think that I just would say that I have been in this and that 
country or eastern or southern Europe or the Iberian peninsula  or 
something like that. "Kontinenten" sounds as if it was something 
better than what we have here. All sorts of people travel everywhere 
so it's really impossible to brag: " I have been on "kontinenten". It 
really doesn't say much.    
 
> Remember that the ancients also described "Scania" as an island.
> They probably knew better (see --> the story of Ottar's journey),
> but for practical purposes there wasn't much differense between
> a very long peninsula and living on an island.

I find this statment, in general, to be illogical.
Why would a serious historian or a geographer describe a peninsula as 
an island, if he knew better? 
Would Snorre deliberately spread desinfromation?
Specifically I think I have to read more about Ottar, wheter he knew 
what he was talking about or nor or if it was desinformation. I 
really don't know now.
> 
> Best regards
> Keth
> 
> PS Of course "meginland" may also have been relative.
> Thus the medieval Icelanders may have described Norway
> as "meginland". But from a standpoint in Norway, it is
> Norway that is the island, and continental Europe that
> is "mainland".
> 
> PPS This may be relevant to a discussion of how the
> old Goths saw the geography as well - especially before
> they settled on the northern coast of "Reidgotaland".
> 
Forgive me for being ignorant, but I don't really know what goths you 
mean. 
Perhaps I'm on the wrong list but I don't believe that the 
Edda's "goths" are the same as the ostrogoths and visigoths in 
historical central Europe.

I believe the names Göteborg (Gothenburg)Götaland Gotland etc comes 
fom the god Gaut and not the people goths(visi-, ostro-.

Best Wishes 
Anders  
> >
> >I would interpret it as that Snorre means exactly what he says. I 
e.
> >that the mainland i e Juteland and Götaland (+ svealand which 
didn't
> >exist as a country only some  200 years before Snorri) was  called
> >Reidgotaland and that the islands i. e Gotland, Sealand , Bornholm,
> >Lolland , Mön , Öland m. fl.  was called. "eygotaland". It doesnt
> >make sense otherwise, and I seriously doubt the notion that Snorri
> >was stupid and didn' t know that (Väster)götland WAS the mainland.
> >Especially since he probably WAS THERE. This would also explain the
> >definition Jo'tland = Reidgotaland explaind in Ynglingasaga. And I
> >assume also  icelandic Jo'tlandshaf for the sea between "Jo'tland"
> >and "Jo'tland".
> >I cannot interpret it otherwise unless  Snorri was very weird.
> >Remember that he specifically speaks about the " Dana wealth and 
the
> >Svea wealth"
> >
> >Best Regards
> >Anders Malmqvist


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