[gothic-l] Re: Sarmatians and Goths in Poland

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2 at f...> wrote:
>   dirk at s... wrote:-
> > ... in Poland, where at times up to one third of the population
claimed noble
> > descent including many very poor peasants ...
>
> Perhaps accurately sometimes. When there was a famine year, the
higher up the
> social scale, the more they could hog what food there was and so
leave more
> surviving descendants than those below them. That would mean
steadily more
> nobility and less peasants as time passed. But the land can only
support a
> given percentage of nobility, so the surplus would have to go down
the social
> scale, as in the type of traditional fairy story centered on a
younger son of
> a noble having to go out into the world to seek his fortune.


Hi Anthony,

very briefly because this is going off-list material. Your description
sounds convincing at first glance, but I don't think that this really
works, i.e. the share of nobility in the population is not rising
because the  lower classes have a higher death rate, thus forcing
noblemen down the social ladder to become peasants as well. In fact
noble families had often a higher death rate because of their
involvement with military affairs. Often Polish noble families
petitioned the king to allow one son to stay behind in the case of war
in order to ensure the continuation of the family.

Polish nobility was organised according to a very loose Gerp/herp
system (literally meaning coat of arms), by which anyone who had the
same name would bear the same coat of arms and -for lack of
organisation- claim the same social status. As people naturally tend
to claim the higher status the number of 'noblemen' rose and we get
what in German was often called the Polish 'Ruebenadel' and
'Pflasteradel' describing poor Polish peasants and minor town dwellers
who claimed noble decent.  But I think there was a big difference
between those and the 'real' slachtniki'.

cheers
Dirk







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