[gothic-l] Re: Sarmatians and Goths in Poland

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Xoxana at w... wrote:
>        What Dirk is basically saying is "I don't know anything about
the
> ancient Iranians or about physical anthropology, and I am too lazy
to do
> any research, but I still insist that the Alans were dark; and I
don't
> know anything about the ancient authors who described the Alans, but
if
> their observations disagree with me, they must have been faulty.  I
> wasn't there, but if they thought they saw fair hair, I know they
were
> wrong.  They saw dark hair and subjectively thought it was fair."



Hello,

true, I know next to nothing about physical anthropology, but I did
not insist on the Alans been dark haired either. All I said is that we
 should assess the Greek sources that provide these discriptions from
their point of view. Overall, I have no problem at all with the
proposition that Alans were blond.


> What was the physical type of the Goths?
> On page 206 we read "A series of Goths from the Chersonese north of
the
> Black Sea, dated between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., includes three male
and
> eight female skeletons. All of these are long headed, and they
belong to
> a large, powerful Nordic type which reflects their Swedish origin,
for
> they are no different from the Swedish Iron Age crania which we have
> already studied."


The above statement that you provided  seems to demonstrate some of
the  problems with these anthropological comparisons. These supposedly
Nordic Gothic skeletons found at the Black sea can hardly have been
Goths at all if the dating range of between 100BC to 100AD is correct.
The Goths reached this area only in the late 2nd century. So you have
those supposedly Germanic/Gothic characteristics in a time frame where
their should not have been any Germanic/Gothic people in that area.


In general, I believe that conclusions about different ethnical groups
can be drawn from these kind of bone measurements to some extent and
if the sample and the variations are sufficiently large. But I also
believe that these kinds of techniques have to be used very carefully
in combination with other evidence.


cheers
Dirk






Dr. Dirk Faltin




> "A later group of Gepidae dated from the fifth or sixth centuries in
> Hungary shows the persistence of this same type; despite historical
> blending with the Huns....One is forced to the conclusion from this
> series, as from that of the Goths in the Chersonese, that the East
> Germanic peoples who took part in these wanderings preserve their
> original racial characteristics so long as they retained their
poitical
> and linguistic identity.
> "The same conclusion results when one examines the Visigothic skulls
> from northern Spain which date from the sixth century A.D. Here a
series
> combined from several cemeteries shows us exactly the same Nordic
type,
> with tall stature and a high-vaulted skull, a long face, and a broad
> jaw..."
> Page 207: "The type represented by these three groups and by the
> Visigoths seems to be a variant of the Nordic type to which the
early
> Indo-European speakers belonged."
> Page 215: "The summary of our information concerning the racial
origins
> and dispersion of the early Germanic peoples may be stated briefly
and
> simply. At the beginning of the local Iron Age, a new people,
bearing a
> Hallstatt type of culture, entered northwestern Germany and
Scandinavia.
> These invaders were of the usual central European Nordic type
associated
> in earlier centuries with the Illyrians. Through mixture with the
local
> blend of Megalithic, Corded, and Borreby elements, these newcomers
gave
> rise to a special sub-type of Nordic which was characterized by a
larger
> vault and face, a heavier body build, and a skull form on the
borderline
> between dolicho- and mesocephaly.
> "The Germanic tribes that wandered Europe during the period of
> migrations belonged essentially to this type."
> Page 202:
> "The home of the Germans before their expansion was only in a
restricted
> sense the modern Germany. The tribes of which this people was
composed
> occupied Denmark, southern and central Sweden, Norway, and the
northern
> coastal strip of Germany, from the mouth of the Elbe to the Baltic
> shore. The islands of the Baltic near Sweden, namely Gotland and
> Bornholm were densely populated.
> "One must not suppose that these early Germans were the unaltered
> descendants of their Bronze Age predecessors, for there is strong
> archaeological evidence that new people entered Scandinavia at the
> beginning of the retarded Iron Age of this region....The Norse
pantheon,
> with its family of gods and its Valhalla, is closely related to the
> systems of Greece and Rome, of India, and of the other Indo-European
> divisions."
> http://www.delphi.com/physanthro
> http://www.delphi.com/indoeuropean
> http://www.delphi.com/prehistory
> http://www.delphi.com/biohistory
> http://www.delphi.com/nordichistory1
>
> http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
> http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata


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