[gothic-l] Re: Gepids

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

I don't know if it was already mentioned, but Iordanes explained
the origin of the name "Gepidae", in that one of the 3 ships
that the original Goths used under their king Berig to emigrate
from the island Scanza, was lagging behind the two other ships,
and that the name "Gepidae" derives from this; for here Iordanes
adds the explanation "nam lingua eorum pigra gepanta dicitur".
(pigra = lazy, slow, dull)

It is a pity that the number of Gothic words that are found in the
Gothic Bible are so few, and that I am unable to find this Gothic
word that Iordanes mentions here : gepanta. In fact, I looked
both under g as well as under p. The idea of looking under p,
derives by analogy from, for example, German, where a word for "fast"
(geschwind) is closely related to MHG "swind", because -ge is
simply a prefix used to build words, which I assume has been operative
in Gothic as well as in Old German. (I don't know what the technical
term for such a prefix is. Is there any one who can give a more
professional explanation of the phenomenon?)

I see, however, that Gothic has very few words that begin on p.
But there are many words that begin on f. I also remember from
Old Norse that the language often vacillates between p and f for
a given sound (e.g. eptir/eftir). Hence it seems to me that one
may equally well look for a Gothic word that begins on an f, and
has a meaning that is related to slowness. But I was unable to
find any. Then it strikes me that sometimes there is also a close
relationship between p and b. Hence I should also look for a Gothic
word that begins with a b, and means "slow" or something similar.
I then recall the Norwegian word for "to wait" = å bie, which
I do find in the Gothic dictionary as the verb *beidan. Associated
with it are also words like *ga-beidan = to endure, which is actually
close enough to the name Gepid that we seek to explain. Could this
then be the solution ?  (I wonder) ..

Another possible solution, that is very similar, lies in the verb *baidjan,
that means "to excercise a constraint" (moral), with which there are
also associated forms like *gabaidjan.

Regards,
Keth


Dirk wrote :
>According to a source (Hieronyums: Epistolae) Gepids were among the
>people who crossed the Rhine near Mainz in 406AD. But while the
>Vandals, Alans and Suevi continued to move further westwards the
>Burgundians settled near Worms and the Gepids at the upper Rhine
>Elsass/Breisgau area.
>
>Another source (Prosper Havniensis: Chronica) mentioned that in 455AD
>Gepids from the Rhine area participated in wars against Burgundians
>(probably together with Alamanni).
>
>And in around 600AD a source (Aethicus, Scriptor anonymus:
>Cosmographia) states that an area in the Elsass/Breisgau region is
>called the Gepetho, which may be a reflection of the Gepidic name.
>
>After this the traces of the Rhine-Gepids are lost and - just as the
>Rhone-Gepids (who had been settled their by Theoderic)- they were
>absorbed into the local population. Also the Gepids in the Po-valley
>who had been settled their by the Langobards dissappear from the
>records in the 7th century. That leaves only the Gepids who had stayed
>in Pannonia and who were in contact with Bavarian missionaries as late
>as 871AD as reported in the Salzburg chronicles (see earlier posting).
>
>All these souces are given bei Heinrich Sevin (Die Gebiden, 1955).
>
>cheers
>Dirk
>
>
>
>
>--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>> Hello again Steve,
>>
>> I forgot one interesting, but not very well known bit of information
>> abou the Gepids. The Chronicles of Salzburg (871AD) about the
>missions
>> of the Bavarians and Carinthians (Conversio Bagaoriorum et
>> Carantanorum...) stated that in the slavic Pannonia were the
>Bavarian
>> mission was most active once the Huns drove out the Romans, Goths
>and
>> Gepids  (... transfretantes Danubium expulerunt Romanos et Gothos
>> atque Gepidos...).
>>
>> Most importantly, the chronicle continues to state that many of the
>> Gepids were still living there. (...De Gepidis autem quidam adhuc
>ibi
>> resident.) Thus, in 871AD Gepids seem to have still been in
>> exsistence in the Pannonian area, where according to the chronicle
>the
>> Bavarians came in frequent contact with them. Some converted Gepids
>> apparently came to Bavaria to become priests or monks.
>>
>> cheers
>> Dirk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>> > --- In gothic-l at y..., Alburysteve at a... wrote:
>> > > Hi Bertil:
>> > >
>> > > Many thanks for the extensive quote from Jordanes:
>> > >
>> > > >  Further to my comments on the Gepids Jordanes
>> > > >  wrote in Getica XVII:94,95:
>> > > >
>> > > >  "You surely remember that in the begining I said
>> > > >  the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island
>> > > >  of Scandza with Berig, their king, sailing in only
>> > > >  three ships toward the hither shore of Ocean,
>> > > >  namely to Gothiscandza. One of these three
>> > > >  ships proved to be slower than the others, as is
>> > > >  usually the case, and thus is said to have given the
>> > > >  tribe their name, for in their language gepanta means
>> > > >  slow. Hence it came to pass that gradually and
>> > > >  by corruption the name Gepidae was coined for them
>> > > >  by way of reproach. For undoubtedly they too trace
>> > > >  their origin from the stock of the Goths, but because,
>> > > >  as I have said, gepanta means something slow and
>> > > >  stolid, the word Gepidae arose as a gratuitous
>> > > >  name of reproach. I do not believe this is very far wrong,
>> > > >  for they are slow of thought and too sluggish for
>> > > >  quick movement of their bodies."
>> > > >
>> > > >  So it was after all correct that at least Jordanes claimed
>> > > >  they were slow of mind. But the introduction of a Gepidic
>> > > >  word, gepanta, meaning slow seems dubious. Rather
>> > > >  the late Latin gepidus=slow, would be one explanation.
>> > >
>> > > Gepidus is late Latin?  My (classical) latin dictionary fails to
>> > even include
>> > > a gep- root.  Is it a loan word?  Sorry for all the questions.
>> > >
>> > > >  My personal belief, however, is that gepid is related to the
>> > > >  god Gaut or Gapt, the Gothic progenitor. Gaut or Gapt is of
>> > > >  course also another name for Odin.
>> > >
>> > > I suspected that the tribal name was a corruption of something
>and
>> > this makes
>> > > much sense.  My initial reaction to Jordanes' version of Gothic
>> > origins was
>> > > to see it as a reflex of the wider creation legend where the
>world
>> > is made
>> > > from the corpse of the giant Ymir.  Gapt might be head
>(haubith),
>> > Hulmul the
>> > > "helm" (hilms), Augis the eyes (augo), and Amal the shoulders
>> (ams).
>> >  Being
>> > > several christian generations removed from the pagan source, it
>is
>> > hard to
>> > > say how jumbled the terms might have become by the time Jordanes
>> > (being no
>> > > Snorri) records them.  Comparisons have been made between the
>> > > "deconstruction" of Ymir in Norse mythology to similar Vedic
>> > reflexes
>> > > (Puhvel's Comparative Mythology:284ff) and, of course, the
>> > propensity to
>> > > carry tribal geneologies back to the "first man" is well
>> documented
>> > (cf
>> > > Turville-Petre's Myth and Religion of the North, Ch 9).
>> > >
>> > > Thanks again for all the help.
>> > >
>> > > Rgds,
>> > >
>> > > Steve O'Brien
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello Steve,
>> >
>> > ancient authors were apparently also very uncertain about the
>> meaning
>> > of that name. Isidore of Seville (I think) said that the name
>Gepids
>> > comes from Ge-pedes meaning something like foot-soldier. Another
>> > classical interpretation is Ge-paides, which is supposed to mean
>> > 'Decendents of the Getes' (a non-Germanic people in Dacia).
>> >
>> > Heinrich Sevin (die Gebiden, 1955) argued that the name should
>> really
>> > be *Gebids* rather than *Gepids*. Sevin calles the settlement
>areas
>> of
>> > the Gepids in the Weichsel/Masuren area as Gebidoios. After the
>> > Gepidic kingdom in Pannonia Sirmiensis had been destroyed by the
>> > Langobards and Avars, Sevin shows that some of them had been
>> > forcefully resettled to Italy, others stayed behind in the Avaria,
>> > where a reported incident with the Khan Bajan and the Byzantine
>> > emperor shows that they were regarded as subject if not slaves of
>> the
>> > Avars. Seven argues that some of them may have returned to the old
>> > Gebidoios where they are 'attested' in the Masur-Germanic culture
>of
>> > the 6th/7th century.
>> >
>> > Under Theoderic, Gepids had also been resettled to southern Gaul
>and
>> > parts of the Gepids also ended up in the Rhine/Elsass area
>according
>> > to Sevin. Interestingly, the Gepids did produce coins for a while
>in
>> > the Sirmium area in the 6th century. In fact, I am in contact with
>a
>> > numismatist of the Austrian Numismatic Institute in Vienna who
>> argues
>> > that the issues were in fact rather substantial. Some coins seem
>to
>> > show the monogramme and initial of Cunimundus.
>> >
>> > I think most authors nowdays believe that the Gepids formed in the
>> > Vistula region out of the  Goths who did not move to the Black Sea
>> > area in the 2nd/3rd centuries as they are not mentioned by
>Tacitus.
>> > With regards to their name, I suppose we will never now for sure
>> what
>> > it means.
>> >
>> > cheers
>> > Dirk
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Albury, Ontario
>
>
>
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