[gothic-l] Re: Yiddish is based on Ostrogothic

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., czobor at c... wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
>
> I said only "The failure of the Franks to be converted to Arianism
is
> explained, **among other reasons**, also by the fact that,
Franconian
> being a West-Germanic language  considerably different from Gothic,
> the Franks had difficulties in understanding the language of the
> Gothic Bible." This is not my idea, I have read it somewhere,
probably
> in Wolfram's "Die Germanen". In any case, this was not presented
> there as the principal reason for the Franks to prefer the
> Catholicism, it was just "among other reasons". The idea was that
> because of their West Germanic language the Franks had less
linguistic
> affinity to Wulfila's Bible than, let's say, the Vandals or the
> Burgundians.


Hi Francisc,

that maybe right, but I still think that linguistic affinity played
virtually no role in the decision to convert to Catholicism or
Arianism. The Burgundians may be a good example, as they were East
Germanics but switched very early (I think under King Sigismund) to
Catholicism. On the other hand, it has been pointed out that some
(West Germanic) Alamanni may have initially turned to Arianism. Many
Alamanni fled under Ostrogothic protection after the battle of
Zuelpich and the Ostrogothic kingdom included Alamannic areas like the
Vorarlberg at the Bodensee. Also, the use of so called gold leaf
crosses in Alamannic graves has been interpreted as indication for
Arian influence. Finally, a linguist on the Germanic-L has recently
pointed out that by the 4th/5th century East and West-Germanic were
likely still very close and mutually intelligible.

cheers
Dirk











> Regarding the language, the examples of the different Paternosters
are
> suggesting me that they were already different, even if closely
> related, languages, and not merely dialcts of a single language.
>
> Francisc
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> >
> > > 1. Wulfila's Gothic Bible (written in Visigothic) was easily
> > > understood by the Ostrogoths and also by other East-Germanic
> peoples
> > > who adopted the Arianism (Vandals, Burgundians). The failure of
> the
> > > Franks to be converted to Arianism is explained, among other
> > reasons,
> > > also by the fact that, Franconian being a West-Germanic language
> > > considerably different from Gothic, the Franks had difficulties
in
> > > understanding the language of the Gothic Bible.
> >
> >
> > Hi Francisc,
> >
> > I agree with you on the main thrust of your argument, however, I
> don't
> >  think that Franks adopted Catholicism and not Arianism because
they
> > had difficulties in understanding the Gothic Bible.
> >
> > The Franks in Gaul adopted Catholicsim, for at least two reasons:
1)
> > Arianism had always been stronger in the Eastern Empire, while
> > Catholicism was stronger in the West and 2), by the time of their
> > conversion (late 5th century) Arianism had in general fallen out
of
> > favour. Note for example that the East Germanic Burgundians
adopted
> > Catholicism and also the Visigoths switched to Catholicsim in the
> 580s
> > AD. Moreover, Arianism had never placed a big emphasis on
missionary
> > work other than Catholicism.
> >
> > From a language point of view, there are a few things to note too:
> >
> > 1) If incomprehensibility of the Gothic bible-language formed such
a
> > big obstacle to West Germanic Franks to adopt Arianism, than the
> > Latin of the Catholic bible would surely have formed an even
bigger
> > hurdle especially in the Frankish region on the East side of the
> Rhine
> > and in Alamannia.
> >
> > 2) In fact, the examples of the different Paternosters in
different
> > Germanic dialects provided in an earlier message, shows that 4th
> > century Frankish was probably not very different from 4th century
> > Gothic.
> >
> > cheers
> > Dirk


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