[gothic-l] Germanic mutual intelligibility, was: Yiddish ...

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., czobor at c... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., czobor at c... wrote:
> > > Hi Dirk,
> > >
> > > I said only "The failure of the Franks to be converted to
Arianism
> > is
> > > explained, **among other reasons**, also by the fact that,
> > Franconian
> > > being a West-Germanic language  considerably different from
> Gothic,
> > > the Franks had difficulties in understanding the language of the
> > > Gothic Bible." This is not my idea, I have read it somewhere,
> > probably
> > > in Wolfram's "Die Germanen". In any case, this was not presented
> > > there as the principal reason for the Franks to prefer the
> > > Catholicism, it was just "among other reasons". The idea was
that
> > > because of their West Germanic language the Franks had less
> > linguistic
> > > affinity to Wulfila's Bible than, let's say, the Vandals or the
> > > Burgundians.
> >
> >
> > Hi Francisc,
> >
> > that maybe right, but I still think that linguistic affinity
played
> > virtually no role in the decision to convert to Catholicism or
> > Arianism. The Burgundians may be a good example, as they were East
> > Germanics but switched very early (I think under King Sigismund)
to
> > Catholicism. On the other hand, it has been pointed out that some
> > (West Germanic) Alamanni may have initially turned to Arianism.
Many
> > Alamanni fled under Ostrogothic protection after the battle of
> > Zuelpich and the Ostrogothic kingdom included Alamannic areas like
> the
> > Vorarlberg at the Bodensee. Also, the use of so called gold leaf
> > crosses in Alamannic graves has been interpreted as indication for
> > Arian influence. Finally, a linguist on the Germanic-L has
recently
> > pointed out that by the 4th/5th century East and West-Germanic
were
> > likely still very close and mutually intelligible.
> >
> > cheers
> > Dirk
> >
>
> Hi Dirk,
>
> I am not a specialist in such matters, only quoted what I read.
> Maybe the language was indeed not relevant for the decision for
> Arianism or Catholicism (in fact, this is also my point of view, and
I
> found somehow surprisingly the assertion of Wolfram. See the case of
> Serbians, Croatians and Bosniacs, who speak the same language, but
are
> Ortodox, Catholic, respectively Moslem; the Polish, Czech, Slovaks,
> Slovenians and Croatians choose for Catholicism, despite their
> language affinities with the Slavonic Orthodox Bible of Cyrill and
> Methodius; on the other hand the Romanians choose the Orthodoxism,
> despite their Romance language).
> Regarding East and West-Germanic in 4/5th century (before the
> occurence of the second consonnant shift in High German), I agree
that
> they could be, at least in part, mutually inteligible (maybe on the
> border of the dialect/language distinction; very hard to make
> presumptions, since we have very scarce attestations of West
Germanic
> of that time).
>
> Francisc

Hi Francisc,

I see we agree on this, but just to round this up. Apparently, early
Runic inscriptions of the 2nd/3rd centuries AD, show that at this time
all Germanic dialects were still very close to common Germanic as it
has been reconstructed by linguists. Anecdotal evidence could be added
 from the possible ease with which a Marcomannic noble like Catualda
seemed to have communicated with the Goth/Gutones, while Arminius the
Cheruscan seems to have been able to talk to the Marcomannic king
Marbod (around 20AD), thus implying some sort of mutual
intelligibility across the whole Germania between Rhine, Vistula and
Danube.

Anyway, if mutual intelligibility was still high among the various
Germanic dialects in the 2nd and 3rd century AD, I suppose Germanic
people would still have been able to communicate with some ease a
hundred years later when Wulfila (or people in his environment)
translated the bible into Gothic.

cheers
Dirk




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