[gothic-l] Re: Sarmato-Goths became Jews

[czobor at CANTACUZINO.RO]

Dear Mr. Labkovsky,

it was brought a lot of evidence on this list that Yiddish has not
more to do with Gothic than, for instance, German or Dutch. But all
these arguments seem to be not enough for you.
You say "And as far as Yiddish is concerned, this is how the Gothic
language has developed among Sarmato-Goths over more than a 1000
years."
The Goths that remained in today's Ucraine territory found their last
refuge in Crimea and on the nearby Taman peninsula, as attested in the
historical sources. They were mixed with Iranian elements, but these
were rather Alans than Sarmatians (many contemporary sources speak
about the "Goths and Alans" of Crimea).
And, ATTENTION!!!
The Goths & Alans of Crimea were not Jews, but Orthodox Christians!!!
There was a Gothic-Alanic Orthodox bishopric in Crimea, subordinated
to the patriarch of Constantinople, and the names of some Gothic
bishops of Crimea are known. This bishopric was abolished in the 18th
century, because there were no more Alano-Goths. That's why it is
accepted that the Crimean Gothic language became extinct in the 18th
century, despite the fact that it's last attestation is from 16th
century.
This point was already discussed on this list, you can find the
postings (that include, of course, a very rich documentary evidence
for all these assertions) in the Gothic-L archive (use the keyword
"Crimea" or "Crimean" for searching).
No other Goths, or Alano-Goths, or "Sarmato-Goths" are historically
attested on today's Ucrainean territory in the Middle Ages, excepting
those of Crimea and Taman.
Now, returning to the language. If Yiddish is a result of the
development of the language of "Sarmato-Goths", it should have a
certain amount of Iranic elements. Where are they?????????????
As far as I know, beside the (West-)Germanic basic vocabulary, Yiddish
contains many Hebrew and Slavic words, but not Iranic.
In the Crimean Gothic language of the Alano-Goths of Crimea, as
attested by Busbecq's wordlist (16th century), there are at least two
clear Iranic elements:
sada = hundred; hazer = thousand.
If Yiddish would be the descendant of "Sarmato-Gothic", at least these
two Iranic words should be found in this language (since you claimed
in your ealier postings that there is a close relationship between
Crimean Gothic and Yiddish).
But, ATTENTION again!!!
In Yiddish, hundred = hundert, and thousand = toiznt.
They are very close to German Hundert and Tausent (in Yiddish au>oi,
development that can be found also in some Modern High German
dialects).
These Yiddish numbers are also not very closely related to their
equivalents in Wulfilan Gothic, where:
hundred = tainundehund (and hundreds = hunda); thousand = thusundi.
What do you say, are these arguments completely negligible?

Francisc

--- In gothic-l at y..., l_labkovsky at h... wrote:
>  Nobody can deny that Ostrogoths when they lived in Ukraine
> intermixed with Sarmatians who were Iranians. Now, these Sarmato-
> Goths didn't simply evaporate, they stayed in Eastern Europe. In the
> Middle Ages rabbis were feverishly looking for new Jews after German
> Jews had been slaughtered in Crusade riots and Khazars dispersed by
> the Rus Vikings. First, rabbis tried to convert Prince Vladimir of
> Rus to Judaism and when they failed they turned their attention to
> the Sarmato-Goths. Rabbis eventually succeeded in convincing these
> people that the latter were actually Jews from Germany, a
"long-lost"
> tribe of Israel. This is why there was a sudden "explosion" in the
> number of Jews in Eastern Europe. And as far as Yiddish is
concerned,
> this is how the Gothic language has developed among Sarmato-Goths
> over more than a 1000 years. By the way, you would need at least 4
> million German Jews to come to Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages to
> account for 18 million of EE Jews before the WWII. And German Jews
> never numbered more than 20 thousand.


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