Ynt: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium to luleå..

Sat Nov 3 09:14:51 UTC 2001

Yaa, that is interesting connection. Thanks. But here, Lule of Burgaz is a
Turkish, ultimately Persian word. It is name of a precious stone, as well as
Latin type hair for women. There are a lot of Burgazes just on the west of
Istanbul. They differ from each other by a phsical subject near to them,
which constitutes the first part of the names: Kumburgaz, is a coastal town,
kum is sand; Kemerburgaz is near an old Byzantine wall once used for water
transporting into Istanbul, which is called 'kemer' in Turkish. Luleburgaz
was, I think, designated according to 'lule' stones near to it. Forests west
of Istanbul, in which area is Kemerburgaz, are called Belgrade forests. We
know well why it is Belgrade. After Ottoman conquest some part of the city's
habitants were brought here, and in the course of time they became
turkified, but leaving name of their Danubian city. We should have the same
case with Burgazes, too. Exiled people of Burgaz (of Bulgaria) likely kept
name of their city in their new settlements in Eastern Thrace.

all the best,

Osman

----- Original Message -----
From: Sigmund <sigmund at algonet.se>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:11 PM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium to luleå..

>From Byzans to Luleå...
For twopence worth. I was jolted by this name Luleburgaz. We Swedes are,
as far as I know, at a complete loss as to the origin and meaning of several
of our north coastal towns. One of them is Luleå (<Lule aa> on old maps).
Across the upper Bothnian Sea, on the Finnish side, one finds towns like
Uleåborg and similar. It would be stretched to associate them
with proto-Bulgarian, but I'm thinking of the <Lule> or <Ule>  part of it.
Is there the remotest little possibility of these having Fenno-Ugrian
origins
(A Hungarian connection that is)? The names are believed to be
Lappish/Saamish in origin. <Pori> is Finnish for Gmc. *burgz, Goth.
> baurgs, Germ. burg etc so why not.

Sig

 "TURKIYE DERGISI" wrote:

Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian name. One
of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the
Proto-Bulgarian khans, is called Porgas, under whom Croats accepted
Christianity. Another Porgas was a Bulgar (Tatar) ruler on, as far as I
remember, Mordvins, who used to live as Bulgar vassals just on the north of
the Volga Bulgar state. This is very normal, as rulers of Danubian and Volga
Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of Caucasus
were from the same family. Sources do not mention any Porgas among
Proto-Bulgarians, but we have reasons to suppose that they used this name as
their kins.

Another theory may be based on the Altaic clan of Bordjs, who are likely the
same group as Barsils of Orkhon inscriptions. They were among Kumans. In
Russia and Ukraine slavicized Bordjs became Burdjevs, in ex-Yugo area there
are Burdjevichs, who became Burcoglus in Turkey. In Egypt we can find
El-Borg family descending from Kuman-Qypchaks who established Medieval
Mamluk state there. Some members of this clan or tribe were assimilated
among Georgian in caucasia, but major part is to be grandfathers of the
Borchali living in Eastern Georgia. But those are no longer Kuman, but Oghuz
Turks, as a result of long neighborhood with Azeris. The second part of the
city name is As, name of a medieval Irano-Turcic tribe. The As were not able
to defend themselves in very upheaval of the N. Black Sea region and Eurasia
steps, thus always refugeed to other stronger formations, causing usual
double naming: Burt-As, Kenger-As, Alan-As, etc. Askal, the oldest known
name of Kiev, and Astarhan, in nortern coast of the Khazar sea bears their
name. Today's Caucasian Osets descent from them. Kumans were very crowded in
the both sides of Danube, and established the second Bulgarian state in
1169. Thus, a Bordj-As union might have given its name to the city. Other
cities and towns in Turkish Thrace seem to be named under Ottoman, since all
those cities once had their Greek names.

Regards,

Osman

----- Original Message -----
From: Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn at yahoo.com>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium

>
>  Burgaz is not a Turkish word. It appears only in the thracian region of
Turkey. I dont think it is greek either because there are lots of old greek
settlements all around in anatolia but this name is never encountered in
anatolia. Byzantium used to have paid soldiers from other tribes such as
goths and koman&pechenek turks.Thracia region was a passage to many
migrating people including turks, goths and slavs. The city known as
'silivri' 40 km west of constantinopolis is known to have nested a small
gothic group during byzantium time before they were absorbed eventually into
the greek community.
>   Francisc Czobor <czobor at cantacuzino.ro> wrote: --- In gothic-l at y...,
Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn at y...> wrote:
> >
> >  I also wonder what happened to the gots who served as paid soldiers
> to the byzantium empire. They are known to have settled in the thracia
> region west of constantinopolis capital of the empire. There are some
> settlement names which are apparently not turkish nor gereek. Like
> Luleburgaz, kemerburgaz. burgaz sounds like coming from burg(city) but
> I am not very sure. I was very surprised when I saw the mosaics in the
> mosaic museum in istanbul depicting the byzantium soldiers which were
> non greek in facial appearance. That was confirming the assertion that
> the byzantium empire used some gothic tribes as paid soldiers.
>
> Very interesting. I knew about Luleburgaz in European Turkey and was
> also striked by the resemblance of -burgaz with Gmc. *burgz (Goth.
> baurgs, Germ. burg etc.). But I believed that "burgaz" is a Turkish
> word. But if it is not Turkish, than the things change. It is,
> however, possible that burgaz comes from Greek pyrgos (whose
> relationship with the Germanic word is unclear) or late Latin burgus
> (that apparently comes from Germanic).
>
> Francisc

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