[gothic-l] Re: Eruli

Thu Dec 12 18:42:20 UTC 2002

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > The linguists claim, that the wording in the
> > introduction of Getica 
> > indicates that Jordanes mentioned a recent event. I
> > do not know if 
> > this is correct,
> 
> *****GK: If it is, then the Eruli were recently (not
> long before 551) pushed out of "their" territory by
> the Danes. Now whether "their" refers to the Danes or
> to the Eruli, it seems that the territory in question
> must be in Scandinavia. Is this a confirmation of the
> Procopius story?******
> 
#### Hej George. 
I dont want to interfere in your discussion with Troels but this was 
discussed extensively last winter. Naturally the territory must be 
Scandinavia and therefore supporting (but not confirming)the story of 
Procopius.
###
>  but as he described an ethymology
> > of their name 
> > connected to the swamps at the Black Sea,
> 
> *****GK: He seems to have borrowed the explanation
> from Deuxippos via Ablabius/Cassiodorus. This
> explanation dates from the 3rd c, when the Eruli first
> became known(?) to classic authors. Eruli were
> transmogrified into "Eluri", probably because the
> staging ground for their assaults was in a "swampy"
> area. In other words the Greeks reworked "Eruli" into
> "Eluri". Once this entered classical literature, it
> could be cited as "authoritative" irrespectively of
> its adequacy.*****
> 
>  it is
> > difficult to explain 
> > why he should describe a Scandinavian origin in the
> > introduction. 
> > Actually he did not call Scandinavia an origin.
> 
> *****GK: That's true. He does however connect the
> Eruli to Scandinavia. The alternative reading of that
> early passage, viz., that the Danes pushed the Eruli
> out of some territory in Scandinavia around the
> mid-3rd c. continues to appear plausible to some
> investigators. Is there any firm argument against
> it?****

#### According to the analysis of Andreas then YES,there are firm 
arguments (as far as I remember)against that former understanding of 
the texts. That former understanding was build on a misunderstanding 
according to Andreas. He came with very firm and good arguments.
I would think that at the time the Heruli were in conflict with the 
Dani, they were rather newly arrived in Scandinavia and still a well 
defined tribe. They then migrated as a result of this conflict! into 
the Mälar valley which can be said to be next to the Gauti (but they 
could have stayed nearby their territory for some period of time). 
Procopius said they had settled next to the Gauti. That the Heruli 
settled in the Mälar valley is so far unproved but the likliest spot 
taking everything into consideration. As the Heruli were the 
overclass in Pannonia before losing the war with the Langobardi, 
their arrival cannot have been without consequences. And they 
obviously had sufficient reasources to make this long trip. So they 
were not powerless. I think that Snorri's account of the arrival of 
Odin and his tribe from the southern countries into the Mälar valley 
is reflecting the arrival of the Heruli. The chronology does seem to 
fit too. Snorri is describing a rather peaceful intergration of these 
arriving southern people into the local communities (after a phase of 
initial conflict).But this was discussed extensively too last winter 
(along with the travels of Datius etc,etc)and nothing can be proved.
It might have been the more hard-core pagans, along with the major 
portion of the aristocracy that migrated to the North,doubtlessly 
knowing what they were doing and what awaited them.They had the 
choice of being absorbed into the Christian World, migrate East and 
probably being wiped out or migrate to the North. This was a 
calculated move.They probably tried as much as they could to make a 
big impression on the Scandinavian tribes to be safely absorbed into 
the overclass there (that is their aristocratic families).At least 
the arrival of Odins tribe into the Mälar valley (Snorri) was 
impressive. They might have started with the plan of carving out 
their own territory with using force but the Dani were stronger and 
drove them away (maybe in the direction of their enemies more east to 
cause them problems?)Then they changed their strategy! and that made 
sense. This tribe brought the art of skaldship to Scandinavia 
(according to Snorri) and that must have been Eddic poetry that later 
developed into Scaldic poetry in Iceland. Skaldship must have been an 
aristocratic occupation (as it was later in Iceland) so Snorri's 
account make sense.
All this is of course speculation. I do not make any claims.

Bless,bless Einar###
> > 
> > As I wrote this does not exclude a Scandinavian
> > origin, but maybe 
> > Mahomedov's observations just indicate that both the
> > Goths and the 
> > Harii had close Scandinavian family- or
> > trade-relations - or that 
> > Scandinavian groups had joined the Goths bringing
> > with them a 
> > religious influence from the Gautoi as Ingemar has
> > suggested.
> 
> *****GK: That's possible. BTW if one dismisses the
> Procopius story and holds that the expulsion of the
> Eruli from some Scandinavian territory by the Danes
> occurred shortly before 551, is one committed to the
> view that until then some Eruli resided in
> Scandinavia, whence contingents could join other Eruli
> in the south? How did these Scandinavian Eruli get
> there? Were they autochtons?****
> 
>  I think 
> > we shall avoid that old discussion for some time,
> > but the Harii could 
> > be such a group though Tacitus believed they were
> > Lugii.
> 
> *****GK: This whole controversy about the original
> locale of the Eruli and Goths is beginning to remind
> me of a joke about the authenticity of Shakespeare.
> "William Shakespeare did not write the plays. They
> were written by another man, who was called William
> Shakespeare."******
> > 
> > If we assume that Mahomedov's Tanais-group were the
> > Harii/Heruls, the 
> > warriors could have left some tribemembers back in
> > the Tanais-region, 
> > just like also the Goths and the Alans joining the
> > Huns left people 
> > behind them at the Black Sea. When some of the Huns
> > returned around 
> > 450 AD, the Germanic people may have concentrated at
> > Crimea, which 
> > they could more easily defend and escape by sea if
> > necessary - but 
> > this is a subject, I have not investigated.
> > 
> > What is the title of Mahomedov's book - and the
> > language?
> 
> *****GK: It is entitled "Chernyakhovskaya kultura.
> Problema Etnosa" and is in Russian.[ISBN 83-227-1762-8
> : MONUMENTA STUDIA GOTHICA Tom I. Ed. A. Kokowski.
> Lublin 2001. 290 pp.] But there is an excellent
> summary of its main points in German on pp.181-193.
> "Die C'erniachov-Kultur.Das Problem ihrer ethnischen
> Zuordnung" wr. by Christian Radtke (Schleswig). And
> all drawings and maps also have German explanatory
> texts.*****
> > 
> > Troels
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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