[gothic-l] Re: Identifying the Eastern Heruli

[george knysh]

--- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at post9.tele.dk>"
<trbrandt at post9.tele.dk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh at y...> wrote:
>
> > ...........He lists five such: the
> > "Germanics", the "Iranics", the Slavs, the
> > Geto-Thracians, and the Graeco-Romans. Only the
> first
> > three controlled (ethnically) large geographical
> areas
> > where they constituted a majority of the
> population:
> > the "Iranics" dominated the northern shores of the
> > Black Sea between Danube and Lower Dnipro.
>
> Who dominated east of Dnipro?

*****GK: The proto-Slavs were expanding into the
forest-steppe area of eastern Ukraine in the period
prior to 200 AD. The area to the south (in the
steppes)continued to be a Sarmatian (Alanic)
territory. Mahomedov carefully studied six stages of
Gothic and Germanic settlement. Stage 1 (c.180-230)
sees the movement of Wielbark peoples into Western
Ukraine (i.e. west of the Dnipro) esp. along the
Bog(h) r.. Stage 2 (c.230-270) which M. calls the
"period of formation" of the Chernyakhiv c. sees it
expand into all areas of this West (as well as into
Moldavia and Rumania) except Transylvania and East of
the Dnipro (which remains proto-Slavic and Alanic)
Stage 3 (c.270-330), the "period of stabilization"
sees increase of population in the area described, and
the beginning of cultural integration with the Alans
and Late Scythians of the Black sea shoreline. It also
sees the beginning of a movement across the Dnipro
towards the East, but only along the riverbank. Stage
4 (c. 330-375) "the era of Ermanaric" sees a dramatic
expansion East of the Dnipro at the expense of the
proto-Slavs. The steppes East of the Dnipro remain
Alanic, but Alanic groups also cross the river towards
the West and acculturate with the Late Scythians along
the shoreline of the Black Sea. Stage 5 (c.375-430 AD)
"the Hun period" sees a large diminution of the Gothic
population East of the Dnipro, and the beginnings
(only) of out-migration from the older territories
West of the river. But it also sees the appearance of
pockets of population where they were not as visible
before, viz., at the mouth of the Don, in the Crimea,
and, most interestingly, in Transylvania (including
Sintana de Muresh). The steppes of course are the
preserve of Alans and Huns.Stage 6 (post-430)has no
name. It involves a very swift vacation of all
erstwhile Gothic territories by its Germanic and
Iranic elements. Only the Slavs stay behind in large
numbers and begin their own spread. The steppes
continue to hold Alans and Huns as well as other
nomads.*******
> ............
> > Nevertheless his hypothesis is hardly a foolish
> one,
> > though I cannot agree with his notion that the
> Eruli
> > settled on the lower Don immediately after their
> > arrival.
>
> This comment I do not understand. Which arrival?
> Didn't you say that
> they moved from the Moldavia area to Don in the end
> of the 4th
> century?

*****GK: I mean their arrival in the mid-3rd c.*****
>
> > One thing to note is that unlike other
> > groups, the Eruli are not distinctly linked to the
> > area of the Wielbark culture. If a connection with
> the
> > "Harii" and "Hirri" is possible (but this is quite
> > problematic) then perhaps we ought to look for
> them in
> > the settlements containing "Vandalic" elements
> (i.e
> > Psheworsk culture artifacts).
>
> Procopius called them Goths and Tacitus called them
> Lugii, but they
> were mentioned by Tacitus close to the new Goths, so
> they could be
> kinsmen to some of the groups being integrated into
> the Goths - and
> these people could have an earlier Scandinavian
> origin.
>
> .........
> > Kazanski ["Germanic antiquities of
> > the Late Roman period in the Crimea and Azov
> areas",
> > 1997] has found graves of fallen warriors of that
> > period in the southern Crimea which are
> indubitably
> > Scandinavian.
>
> I will try to find that, but until then:
> What makes him so sure?
> When are these graves dated?
> Crematation or inhumation?
> Did Mahemodov combine these finds with his
> Scandinavian group?

******GK: Apparently so. They were cremation graves,
and M. refers to Kazanski (1997) re the ritual and
inventory (stone constructions, weapons, and scythes).
The date is the beginning of the 3rd c. AD. At that
time these would not represent settlement burials, but
internment of warriors who fell during campaigns far
from home.*******
>
> Troels
>
>


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