[gothic-l] Re: "Eruli", "Goths", "Danes" and wherefrom the runes

Wed Dec 18 07:02:15 UTC 2002

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson
<einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Einar,
> >
> > the Asa religion is not a Gothic heritage! We know very little
> about
> > Gothic paganism, but one thing is certain. The Goths were the
first
> > Germanic people to convert to Christianity, already from the late
> 3rd
> > century onwards.
> >
> > ### Hej Dirk.
>   Yes, but could not the pagan Heruli have been carriers of the
Goths
> former pagan traditions!At least partly.###

Hi Einar,

that is of course not impossible, but we have not the slightest
evidence to support this view, so it will remain speculation.

> >
> >
> > > As the Heruli were a Gothic people it must be assumed
> > > that their arrival brought some elements from Gothic culture to
> > > Scandinavia.
> >
> >
> > Again, the Goths of the 5th/6th century were Christians! In fact,
a
> > large part of the Heruls were likely also Christians, some of
them
> > even Catholocs as is suggested by tomb stone inscriptions from
> > Concordia (see Fibinger). Those Heruls who had retained paganism,
> had
> > likely nothing to do with the Asir gods, but from the
> archaeological
> > remains of the Hegykoe group likely followed a syncretic form of
> > steppe-nomadic Shamanism and Germanic and other paganism.
>
> ## That can well be right, but this "Germanic and other paganism"
> could have been the earlier form of Asatru as we know it and can be
> evaluated from Icelandic material. But even if not so the Asatru
> could have emerged in the 6th-7th centuries in Scandinavia as a
> result of the Heruli migration. Elements of Christianity, shamanism
> and even Mithraism (as far as I remember) can be found in Asatru.
> Asatru is centered around the ancestor-cult princip. That is food
for
> thought too.##

I think Asatru is a modern term for some sort of neo-paganism. Is
that what you are refering to?

> >
> > Those Heruls who went to Italy after their defeat in 509AD, were
> > likely Arian Christians. They also must have included the highest
> > ranking members of the Herulic royal clan, because otherwise they
> > would not have been received by Theoderic. Similarly, those
Heruls
> > who joined the Langobards, may partly have been Christians. The
> > remaining group which wondered around, starving and suffering
abuse
> > and defeat by Gepids likely included those Herulic elements which
> > were composed of steppe nomads of ethinic
> > Hunnic/Mongolic/Turkic/Alanic origin. The non-germanic names of
> their
> > later federate kings like Grepes, Ochos, and probably Datius and
> > Aordos would support this view. We must not forget that the
Heruls
> > were a multi-ethnic group. The non-Germanic and non-Christian
> > components of the Heruls likely found it most difficult to seek
> > integration among Langobards and Ostrogoths, which would have
been
> > the normal course of action otherwise.
>
> ## What is unlikley is that these non-Germanics steppe nomads would
> have migrated north to Scandinavia. They would rather have migrated
> east.

That is what I think too, and in fact that is what most of them did
according to Procopius. Hence, most of them sought shelter inside the
Roman empire.

> If they were so starving and suffering they would have sought
> shelter by the next nation wanting them into their ranks.

Yes, that is exactly what Procopius tells us. Procopius wrote that
they first wandered around and suffered starvation. Than they sought
shelter among the Gepids. After the Gepids maltreated them and abused
their women, they decided to flee across the Danube and seek shelter
in the Roman empire, which was granted. After this Procopius
remembered that a part of them, just before crossing the Danube
decided to turn north to the farthest regions of the world.

> Even to
> become Christians to get rid of their suffering.

Yes, that is exactly what was required of them, and what they did.

> The last thing on
> their minds would have been migrating to a very far away countries.
> They would not have had the reasources anyway.

My thought exactly. This is also one of the arguments why A. Cameron
( the foremost scholar on Procopius) thinks that this tale of
migration to Thule is not fully credible.

> Probably Procopius account has to be seen in the light of that a
> pagan people lost battle with a Christian people and the result for
> the pagans: hunger and suffering! A good teaching lesson for them
who
> opposed the real God!

That is partly correct I think. But even after the Heruls who had
found shelter among the Romans and who had now become converted to
Christianity , Procopius points out that they still remain the lowest
of creatures, he calles them liars, drunkards, treators and
sodomites, despite being Christians. Hence, this would have spoiled
the story if it was really just about showing the superiority of
Christianity. In fact, the whole episode is a lesson in
contemporary 'barbarian policy'.

Cheers,
Dirk

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