[gothic-l] Re: "Eruli", "Goths", "Danes" and wherefrom the runes

[Tore Gannholm]

>Let me inject a word of caution.
>
>Dirk writes> > Again, the Goths of the 5th/6th century were
>Christians! In fact, a large part of the Heruls were likely also
>Christians, some of them even Catholocs as is suggested by tomb stone
>inscriptions from Concordia (see Fibinger).
>
>The Goths and Heruls of this period could not have been Christian in
>more than name. There is no evidence to suggest that they actually
>believed in Christianity as such. The Goths adopted an heretical form
>of Christianity for which they would be damned in the eyes of actual
>Judeo-Christian peoples. I suspect that this decision was made for
>political, not religious reasons. Choosing an heretical brand of
>Christianity helped them to win the trust of their mainly Christian
>subjects while at the same time keeping them seperate racially and
>politically. I would call it a kind of segregation of churches. The
>eventual failure of the Arian church as a religion seems also to
>proove that its real purpose was political and not religious. I
>suspect that most Goths were entirely agnostic businessmen with a
>penchant for battle.
>
>  Those Heruls who had retained paganism,
>>  had
>>  > likely nothing to do with the Asir gods, but from the
>>  archaeological
>>  > remains of the Hegykoe group likely followed a syncretic form of
>>  > steppe-nomadic Shamanism and Germanic and other paganism.
>
>I suspect that they followed whatever brand of religion furthered
>their economic prospects, Germanic or not.
>>
>>  ## That can well be right, but this "Germanic and other paganism"
>>  could have been the earlier form of Asatru as we know it and can be
>>  evaluated from Icelandic material.
>
>The earlier form of this religion would undoubtedly be the
>Scandinavian one. It would also be the least corrupt form. Goths and
>Heruls were emmigrants who came into contact with many kinds of
>people. Whatever religion they followed must have degenerated
>accordingly. Their later Christianity degenerated to the point that
>it became extinct.
>
>  But even if not so the Asatru
>>  could have emerged in the 6th-7th centuries in Scandinavia as a
>>  result of the Heruli migration.
>
>I do not think so. This religion is known to be substantially older
>than this, at least in Scandinavia. Many Germanic peoples emigrated
>from this region long before the period you mention. These people are
>all believed to have carried this religion with them. Although these
>emmigrant populations eventually became extinct, the real origin of
>the religion itself must be in Scandinavia.
>
>
>  Elements of Christianity, shamanism
>>  and even Mithraism (as far as I remember) can be found in Asatru.
>>  Asatru is centered around the ancestor-cult princip. That is food
>for thought too.##
>
>I suspect that you are reading a lot into this religion which could
>never have been a real part of it. For instance, there is certainly
>no evidence for elements of Christianity or Mithraism in what you
>call Asatru. This is mixing apples and oranges. Christainty comes
>from Judaism. Jesus and all of his apostles were Jews of middle
>eastern extraction. Mithraism is of Persian origin. The religion you
>are talking about is rooted in Scandinavia. It must have developed
>independantly of these other religions. You should probably consult
>an authority on Scandinavia archeology about the early inhabitants of
>Scandinavia. This religion could well be thousands of years old.

Bob,
I presume you are just guessing or do you have any source to prove it.

>  > >
>>  > Those Heruls who went to Italy after their defeat in 509AD, were
>>  > likely Arian Christians. They also must have included the highest
>>  > ranking members of the Herulic royal clan, because otherwise they
>>  > would not have been received by Theoderic. Similarly, those
>Heruls who joined the Langobards, may partly have been Christians.
>The remaining group which wondered around, starving and suffering
>abuse and defeat by Gepids likely included those Herulic elements
>which were composed of steppe nomads of ethinic
>Hunnic/Mongolic/Turkic/Alanic origin. The non-germanic names of
>their later federate kings like Grepes, Ochos, and probably Datius
>and Aordos would support this view. We must not forget that the
>Heruls were a multi-ethnic group. The non-Germanic and non-Christian
>components of the Heruls likely found it most difficult to seek
>integration among Langobards and Ostrogoths, which would have been
>the normal course of action otherwise.

Again, do you have any source that proves your statement.

Which books have you read about arianism?

Tore


>As you say, they were certainly multi-ethnic.
>>
>>  ## What is unlikley is that these non-Germanics steppe nomads would
>>  have migrated north to Scandinavia. They would rather have migrated
>>  east. If they were so starving and suffering they would have sought
>>  shelter by the next nation wanting them into their ranks. Even to
>>  become Christians to get rid of their suffering.
>
>They adopted in name whatever religious or political affiliation
>furthered their economic conditions. We must be careful not to over
>romanticize these people.
>
>  The last thing on
>>  their minds would have been migrating to a very far away countries.
>>  They would not have had the reasources anyway.
>
>This would ceratinly be economically infeasible, as you say.
>
>>  Probably Procopius account has to be seen in the light of that a
>>  pagan people lost battle with a Christian people and the result for
>>  the pagans: hunger and suffering! A good teaching lesson for them
>who opposed the real God!
>
>Attributing political or military victories to the "real" god or gods
>has always been a game for fools. The real motives for and results of
>war have nothing to do with religion. Whether Gothic or Herulian, the
>most intelligent members of the ruling class have always known this.
>
>Bob Busam
>

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