[gothic-l] Re: "Eruli", "Goths", "Danes" and wherefrom the runes

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

Hi Dirk

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> >
> > >>Those Heruls who went to Italy after their defeat
> > >> in 509AD, were likely Arian Christians. They also
> > >> must have included the highest ranking members of
> > >> the Herulic royal clan, because otherwise they
> > >> would not have been received by Theoderic.
> >
> > You could argue for the opposite conclusion as well. Why should
> > he give himself all that trouble - he needed strong warriors.
>
> I just provided the commonly accepted interpretation. Apparently,
> Theoderic would not have granted an audience to those Heruls, had
> they not included men of high/royal status.

Apparently both conclusions are guesswork - but of course some nobles
were among them.

> > ..............
> > > The
> > > integration of Heruls into the Langobards can be deducted from
> the
> > > Historia Langobadorum, which reports that the Langobardic king
> took
> > > the royal insignia of the Herulic king. This act likely meant
> that
> > he
> > > also took the overlordship of the followers of Rodolph, the
last
> > > independent Herulic king.
> >
> > No - just that they were defeated by him and that he took
> possession
> > of their land and maybe 3 remaining Heruls.
> >
>
>
> Not really. You have to analyse the whole of the subsequent
> Langobardic history, to understand that it was common practice to
> integrated the bulk of the survivors of a defeated enemy into  the
> own ranks, especially and explicitly among the Langobards. The
> wording in the sources (about royal insigia etc.), plus the
> subsequent events show that this is what has happened also after
the
> defeat of the Heruls. See, for example, W. Pohl 'Die
> Voelkerwanderung', 2002, for a full analysis of these events.
> However, if you have evidence to support your view that Wacho
assumed
> the royal Herulian insignia only to claim overlordship over 3
> remaining Heruls, I would be interested to know what this is;-)

Sorry - maybe they were 4. This does not tell us much as it is
evident that members of these migration- and mercenarie people went
into the service of each other and were married to each other all the
time.

Odoaker was called Rex Herulorum, but he was not the king of the
Herulian people. Julian II and his follower called themselves
Erulicus, but when Narces and the Lombards/Awars defeated the Heruls
in 567 AD, most of them were probably killed or integrated among the
Lombards and Awars in the regions where they were defeated as we did
not hear about refugees. Few years ago the Danish Queen gave up her
title "Queen of the Goths and Wends". I am sure Tore never regarded
her as his queen.

Don't use ceremonial boasting as historical documentation without
caution and use of other stronger sources too.


> > > Also, interation of defeated enimies is a
> > > directly attested custom for the Langobards and will no doubt
> have
> > > taken place in 509AD. Wacho's marriage to Silinga, the daughter
> of
> > > Rodolph was likely instigated in order to facilitate the
> > integration
> > > and garner support among Herulic factions among the Langobards.
> >
> > Normally these marriages were used for alliances - not for their
> own
> > subjects. Are you sure she was a daughter of Roduulf and not of
> > another Herulian king? What does the source tell us?
>
>
> I think one source calls her simply daughter of the Herulic king,
> but also mentiones that the Heruls had no king after Rodolph.

According to Procopius Ochus was king of the Heruls 30 years later.
Wacho first became king after the Heruls were defeated, and Silinga
was his 3rd wife with a young son when Ochus was killed.

> Another source, I think calls her daughter of Rodolph, but
> I am not certain.

That is the one I am searching for. The first showed up to be too
uncertain.

Troels



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